Retrocentrics' Club Emblem and Tie

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

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couch
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Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:46 pm

As to stripes, my own preference would run to a pencil stripe like this:

Image

as being more versatile in application, followed by a slightly wider uneven stripe such as the one NJS originally posted:

Image

If evenly spaced bar stripes, I'd vote for something narrower than a "guards stripe" width. Here's the Kansas State University tie done by Sam Hober for "Ask" Andy:

Image

As you see this is not too far from our proposed colors (I'd hope for a paler and bluer lilac). One hopes that if commissioning from Benson and Clegg or Smart Turnout, they could check for existing regimental, club, and old school patterns to help us steer clear of exact conflicts. Having the lilac pencil stripe on a white field would be gorgeous, but would soil easily and be hard to wear with a white or largely white shirt, so I envision the lilac as the field with the stripe in white.

NCW is correct about the labor cost of "proving" arms, and I don't see that a trademark would help much if we were registering an escutcheon, since to be defensible ethically and legally it should still not infringe on known arms. I'm with dopey that we should simply name ourselves, our motto, and our club mascots, do without the heraldic device, and equip ourselves with a tie and/or rosette. I confess that I'm keen on the rosette partly because it's so much less commonly seen than a club tie, but I'd be delighted to own both.
RWS
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Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:21 pm

pvpatty wrote:I suspect that we may ever so slightly be going overboard.
If we don´t do so for long, I´ll enjoy it -- somewhat.

I see no reason to register ¨arms¨ when a spoof is created: that is, no shield or escutcheon. The clock (or its dial) filling the place where we´d expect to see the arms themselves (that is, the shield and the devices -- designs -- on it) in a full achievement is clearly a spoof, even if supported by one or two animals, topped by another, and underlaid (for no one, thank goodness, has begun to talk of compartments!) by our motto on a scroll -- or not! If members are keen on it, we certainly could consider other protection; I tend to think trademark may be best, but Dopey, who´s much more knowledgeable than I, might favor copyright or another measure.
storeynicholas wrote:. . . . Is the lilac and white striped tie agreed and on then?
I hope so. It certainly appeals most to me.
. . . . 1. do we want the stripes slanting in the usual American way or the usual British way?
Either´s fine, I think. Shall we allow the supplier to determine the direction? And are we agreed, as good Retroes, that the tie be made of silk?
2. is it to be equal alternating stripes of 1 inch?
I´d personally prefer a pencil stripe of lilac (a quarter of an inch wide or so) on a white field (a white stripe double the width of the lilac). The unequal spacing is a bit distinctive, highlights the lilac in a nice way (to my eyes), and makes the manufacture of rosettes easier, I think (no special run of ribbon needed, I believe; but I´ll check on this next month).
3. without other features on this tie?
Please!
The more that I have thought about this the better I like it and I think that we should seek some inexpensive but effective protection for the colours at least so far as social clubs are concerned - racing colours etc don't concern us (well, not in the club at any rate!).
Agreed.
I have been thinking about whether there should be a life president and I think that there should be - but maybe called the King of Prussia of the Retrocentric Club. Why not Life President you say, and why on earth such a strange title when he was a Kaiser anyway and then an Emperor but not exactly a king. . . .
The German emperor (of the second empire, 1871-1918) remained king of Prussia as well. There´s a claimant still. For personal reasons, I´d prefer some other title.
Frog in Suit
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Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:46 pm

1. do we want the stripes slanting in the usual American way or the usual British way? 2. is it to be equal alternating stripes of 1 inch?
3. without other features on this tie?
My two cents, or half pennies , or sous:

I would vote for:

1) Stripes slanting the British way,

2) Alternating stripes: an inch is a lot. Equal stripes can be boring (light colours) or overpowering (alternating light and dark ones). I feel they only work in the case of two strong colours together (Brigade of Guards, e.g.). I also think the lilac should be the background, with the white as a narrower stripe (else it may look like a white tie with a bit of pastel in the middle -- lacking oomph--). The example supplied by NJS (middle picture in the recent post from Couch at 9:46 PM) seems fine and could be worn with most blue-striped shirts (one would have to make sure the shirt stripes and the tie stripes are different, although Harvie & Hudson used to sell shirts and ties in the exact same stripes and colours), or plain blue or white ones. 20 £ is a good price (Benson & Clegg is/are a very nice shop indeed).

3) Given the sugested width of the stripes and the facts that neither white nor lilac would let a light coloured pattern (white, gold?) stand out, and that a dark pattern (navy, black, what else?) on a lilac background seems unappealing to me at least, may we agree on no pattern on the tie?

As for going overboard, I for one think we are all being perfectly reasonable and thoughtful and considerate and judicious. Harrumph!

I know nothing of the legal aspects of registering a device. We have to keep it inexpensive. After all, the most we can hope for is probably the occasional lunch, most likely never with the full membership present in one place.

Frog in Suit

PS; Silk only, of course!
Frog in Suit
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Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:57 pm

Sorry, but I forgot:

As to governance (an ugly word which has even seeped into the French language, alas): I for one would prefer no king or president. What about "great timekeeper" or something equallly ridiculous, but germane to the club's purpose?

Frog in Suit

PS: There had been argy-bargy between the Prussians and some of us in the past, after all...
pagean
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:18 am

I'd be happy to add my name to the membership(and tie) list
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:15 pm

We seem to be getting there gradually!! The suggestion for the title for the life president was, maybe, a little tactless!! Sorry about that!! The Timekeeper or the Great Timekeeper , as suggested by FiS would be much better. Sam Hober is improving the quote on the filed club tie. get back to you all on that.
NJS
PS - The Richmond Herald has confirmed that it does not seem that the College of Arms would object to our use of mascots and clock - I suppose that, as long as we avoid a helm and crest or anything near a shield, we're perfectly safe.

NJS
Frog in Suit
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:15 pm

storeynicholas wrote:We seem to be getting there gradually!! The suggestion for the title for the life president was, maybe, a little tactless!! Sorry about that!! The Timekeeper or the Great Timekeeper , as suggested by FiS would be much better. Sam Hober is improving the quote on the filed club tie. get back to you all on that.
NJS
PS - The Richmond Herald has confirmed that it does not seem that the College of Arms would object to our use of mascots and clock - I suppose that, as long as we avoid a helm and crest or anything near a shield, we're perfectly safe.

NJS
NJS,

No need to apologize.

In the same vein, we could have "The Supreme Clock Winder" or, rather, "Unwinder of Clocks"....
How about a man-sized clock (or pocket-watch) in reverse (I,II,III,IIII,V,VI,...running counterclockwise), supported on one side by a vole, on the other by a tortoise, with a banner (we need a motto. Latin would add cachet*). Perhaps underfoot we could show symbols of what we do not like in modern/fashiony dress (a bit difficult, that. -- bolts of viscose or polyester??).

* " Tempora mutantur. Retrocentrices immutabili" (probably chock-full of errors, but you get the idea.

Just a thought.

Frog in Suit
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:39 pm

FiS -
I think that a lot of people were happy with Villon's line Mais, ou sont les neiges d'antan, suggested by Costi as the motto, in substitution for my first shot, which began with the word 'Not' and was swiftly abandoned. However, a latin motto is no bad thing.
NJS
Frog in Suit
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:53 pm

storeynicholas wrote:FiS -
I think that a lot of people were happy with Villon's line Mais, ou sont les neiges d'antan, suggested by Costi as the motto, in substitution for my first shot, which began with the word 'Not' and was swiftly abandoned. However, a latin motto is no bad thing.
NJS
Villon, of course. I had forgotten already :oops: .

Frog in Suit
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:02 pm

FiS - well, we have come a long way in a short time!! The Villon is perfect because it nicely combines a wistful nostalgia with a brief statement of out intent - which something such as tempus fugit - memoria constans misses.
NJS

FiS - it is too hot for latin - I've amended mine twice and, on the basis that I have already demonstrated the limited ambit of my French (to which you brought your habitual courtesy), I now abandon the hopeless task of saving myself from the scorn of the LL classicists!!
NJS :?
Last edited by storeynicholas on Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:05 pm

[quote="couch"]As to stripes, my own preference would run to a pencil stripe like this:

Image

This one is nearly the UCL tie!! - however, with a lighter (bluer) lilac and a white stripe - maybe it would be far enough away from that and somewhere near what we seek.
NJS
couch
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:21 pm

NJS:

Sorry if I wasn't clear! Of course, I posted that as example of the pencil-stripe class, not for its colors. (It is in fact the old school tie of the Gordonstoun School Colour Bearers, according to Benson & Clegg's site).

Here are the closest examples of the lilac I envisioned (shadows on snow) that I could quickly find online (posted for color only!) I think this color field on a substantial repp silk with the white pencil stripe would be restrained and elegant, with a certain nostalgic air.

Image


Image
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:04 pm

Couch - You did not confuse me - as I realized that you meant the design. I have more information from Sam Hober on their quotes - they can do stripes in batches of 24 in silk for US $75 each; Benson & Clegg are at about GB£20 each for 24. I know that Concordia is very happy with his Sam Hober ties. I know that Benson & Clegg club ties are unlined and I fully expect that Sam Hober ties are probably all lined. Both are quotes are for silk.
NJS
storeynicholas

Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:05 pm

storeynicholas wrote:Couch - You did not confuse me - as I realized that you meant the design. I have more information from Sam Hober on their quotes - they can do stripes in batches of 24 in silk for US $75 each; Benson & Clegg are at about GB£20 each for 24. I know that Concordia is very happy with his Sam Hober ties. I know that Benson & Clegg club ties are unlined and I fully expect that Sam Hober ties are probably all lined. Both are quotes are for silk. I like the shades that you have produced here - a decided lilac as opposed to indigo.
NJS
Frog in Suit
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:55 pm

storeynicholas wrote:Couch - You did not confuse me - as I realized that you meant the design. I have more information from Sam Hober on their quotes - they can do stripes in batches of 24 in silk for US $75 each; Benson & Clegg are at about GB£20 each for 24. I know that Concordia is very happy with his Sam Hober ties. I know that Benson & Clegg club ties are unlined and I fully expect that Sam Hober ties are probably all lined. Both are quotes are for silk.
NJS
USD 75 = (approximately) GBP 41, so twice as much. (?)

Frog in Suit
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