Retrocentrics' Club Emblem and Tie

[marcelo]

Tortoise cum Pine Vole is just fine, though the semiotics of this combination may, in the future, provide material for some scholarly dispute. Be that as it may, if both creatures are to share their habitat on the surface of a necktie with a third icon, there arises the question if it should be the Retrocentric’s iconic representation of time, reminiscent of the Eccentric’s clock, or a combination of the three pictures, as suggested by Frog in Suit (“vole standing on one side, a tortoise on the other (à la unicorn and lion) supporting a reversed clock face between the two of them”). I am not sure, however, as to the aesthetics of this third element, i.e. not of the element itself, but of its positioning amongst the stripes.

Since the real premises of our club are, given the circumstances of our daily conversations, rather immaterial, it is evident that neither a permanent staff nor concrete accommodations would be necessary – or even affordable. Yet, a further step might be possibly taken towards the accomplishment of our shared ideals. I suppose that our addressing each other, in the very premises of our immaterial club, from behind a diversity of noms de plumes, would have appeared a rather unclubbable attitude in the minds of some past paragons of elegance in the context of their club life.

[storeynicholas]

If we start arranging creatures together as supporters etc we run the risk of being accused of assuming bogus arms which (may silly as it may seem) is a real risk! however, if we keep to the designs suggested in my last entry above, I believe that we avoid this risk and I have written to the College of Arms whether we would be safe. As to names - I use my own name anyway, and so do some others besides initials - as to the us of pseudonymns - I suppose that, at least, when members actually meet, real identities are disclosed!
NJS

[RWS]

If we start arranging creatures together as supporters etc we run the risk of being accused of assuming bogus arms which (may silly as it may seem) is a real risk! . . . .

Only if we are based in England. And what´s wrong with assumed arms elsewhere, especially when those are clearly not arms but, rather, something of a spoof (¨the Eccentrics´ clock, supported by a Bavarian pine vole sinister and a Galapagos tortoise dexter . . . ¨)? Placing the clock face where a shield would otherwise be clearly differentiates our ¨arms¨ from real ones; the lack of a crest is notable, too, not that arms require a crest (yet, mightn´t this be an opportunity to put Costi´s beloved crab into our scheme?).

However, if members really want a grant of arms, we can try other jurisdictions. My own arms originated in the Netherlands, long, long ago, and I suppose that there may still be a heralds´ college or equivalent there. I´ve heard that such an institution has been reconstituted in Russia, with a charge for a grant of arms that is less than a tenth of the English one. Or might Brazil still have something left from its imperial days?

[couch]

I'm glad that Dopey's observation about the inappropriateness of rushing to judgment in this of all clubs is being taken to heart. Some further musings:

- It's with some hesitation that I say that I had not leapt to the assumption that the mascot need be the device on the club tie. I rather like the idea of a plain unequal bar or pencil stripe in lilac and white as suggesting sun and shadow on "les neiges d'antan." I'd be sorry to see the tie resemble a sporting tie dotted with game birds or animals, and I'd like to be able to wear it on any occasion not requiring dinner clothes (with private pleasure in the significance, and the recognition of any fellow members on meeting).

This would solve not only the dilemma of which creature and how positioned (a tortoise passant gardant? displayed? rampant?) but that of who would do the rendering. It might also make it easier to acquire the silks. If a device or figure is keenly desired, I'd cast my vote for the reversed clock face (white with black numerals?). However, for the numerals to be embroidered at a legible size (would this be easier with Roman numerals?) the device might have to be larger than would be elegant in scattered multiples. So in that case, perhaps equal-width wide stripes with a single device centered in a lilac stripe might work. But I still prefer plain unequal stripes.

- As to colors, red and gold seems riskily close to MCC's ham and eggs, and blue and gold and blue and silver are pretty widely used among U.S. universities and armed services and no doubt elsewhere.

- As to the cost of an achievement of arms, back in the late '70s I visited the Chief Herald of Ireland (who was amused that any tourist would take an interest) and he was quite accommodating when I asked about eligibility for a grant of arms--his response was a lenient interpretation of the current stated policy which includes "An individual, corporate body or other entity not resident or located in Ireland but who or which has substantial historical, cultural, educational, financial or ancestral connections with Ireland." I'm sure several of our members could qualify the club under these terms. There seems to be some flexibility as to the corporate documentation required (see http://www.nli.ie/en/applying-for-a-grant-of-arms.aspx).I have applied for a schedule of fees, in hopes they may be more reasonable than those of the U.K. College. (Much of the cost may in fact go for developing the painted and engrossed vellum illustration that accompanies the Patent of Arms.) There would be a certain Swiftian (and eccentric) appeal to having our club's Patent be Irish. And of course the use of the mascot(s) and/or clock as devices on the arms or as supporters or in the crest would be quite appropriate.

[Costi]

Our mascot is turning into an entire menagerie of terrestrial and aquatic creatures
If we insist on combining all these elments into one coat of arms, the tortoise could be used to support the inverted dial clock placed as RWS suggest, as a shield (as it supports the world in HIndu mythology), while the pine vole's size recommends it for the crest.

[Frog in Suit]

Do we abolutely need to register "our" heraldic device(s)? I would think that we must, above all, avoid infringing on anyone else's.

Would it not be easier or cheaper, if we must register, to do so a) as a Trade Mark, or a Copyright, or whatever does not involve the disbursement of £ 5,000 (!) and/or b) in whatever jurisdiction charges the least amount?

After all, this will never be a large club (Thank God) or a rich one......

Frog in Suit

P.S. You will all have guessed that I am not a lawyer ...

[storeynicholas]

A lot to take in. We will need to settle something eventually. I have counted 9 active LL members in this thread. We do need about 24 to make the ordering of ties on any basis viable or to any purpose. There have been a lot of viewings but not that many contributors of comment. I hope that we can get to 24 LL members from all over the world. I agree that this will never be a big club or a rich one but an interesting one nevertheless!!
NJS

[RWS]

Because several men have now written, and because I´m not likely to be able to do so again ´til next month, I´m with Couch -- I´d strongly prefer a simple striped tie of lilac and white, no figures -- and Frog -- a trademark makes more sense and costs less than a grant of arms. But the question of jurisdiction remains; ´too bad that the United Nations won´t approve a trademark for our international membership!

[marcelo]

It may well be a question to be discussed at a further step of our exchanges, but after we have reached a reasonable consensus as to the choice of mascots and the way they are to be represented (rampant, scattered, en face, one beside the other, etc.), there remains the question as to how to turn an ordinary picture into an image capable of being embroidered in such a way that it be easily recognised as the intended figure. Does any one have the required abilities in this regard?

[NCW]

£5000 is exactly what it costs them. A coat of arms, is, after all, a bespoke product. It takes many years of work to learn enough genealogical and heraldic information to be able to judge the suitability of the arms. They have to search through every record of arms over more than a millenium making sure that the design you agree to is not owned, or to close to one owned, by any descendent (in male line except for armiger heiresses) of the original armiger, which is a daunting task when you think that every gentlement at one stage had arms of some sort. The process is not merely as easy as choosing whatever design you want either. Finally, the scrivening and drawing is quite a job too; making beautiful and finely detailed ink drawings on vellum is a vanishing skill. A lot of people are involved in the process too, starting with the heralds and poursuivants, then the Earl Marshal, then the King of Arms, and finally the letters patent are signed by the Garter King, and the King of Arms again.

It is a good price for the highest form of royal recognition, and a truly bespoke product. After all, for the personal arms, you should never need to apply.

[storeynicholas]

£5000 is exactly what it costs them. A coat of arms, is, after all, a bespoke product. It takes many years of work to learn enough genealogical and heraldic information to be able to judge the suitability of the arms. They have to search through every record of arms over more than a millenium making sure that the design you agree to is not owned, or to close to one owned, by any descendent (in male line except for armiger heiresses) of the original armiger, which is a daunting task when you think that every gentlement at one stage had arms of some sort. The process is not merely as easy as choosing whatever design you want either. Finally, the scrivening and drawing is quite a job too; making beautiful and finely detailed ink drawings on vellum is a vanishing skill. A lot of people are involved in the process too, starting with the heralds and poursuivants, then the Earl Marshal, then the King of Arms, and finally the letters patent are signed by the Garter King, and the King of Arms again.

It is a good price for the highest form of royal recognition, and a truly bespoke product. After all, for the personal arms, you should never need to apply.

Welcome to another member.
NJS

[Frog in Suit]

NCW,

If I may speak for the other participants as well as for myself, I do not think anyone was questioning the value and fairness of the £ 5,000 fee. I only wish we could afford it, alas .

Frog in Suit

PS: As a temporary summary, and unless I am mistaken, are we agreed on a plain lilac and white stripe? What width for the stripes? What "coat of arms" (motif, figure, logo) do we choose? For what purpose (which would have an implication on the size or intricacy of the chosen pattern)? If it does not go on the ties, where does it go?

I am getting slightly confused -- nothing unusual here-- and am really quite happy to let others, more expert than I am, take a leading role.

FiS

[dopey]

I plan on seeing Chipp2/Winston next week and will ask about what is involved in commissioning a club tie.

All this talk of registration, fees and heraldry is making this a bit too industrious for me. I am in favor of pretending we have a club. To me, that is superior to a real one and all of its administrative reality.

[pvpatty]

All this talk of registration, fees and heraldry is making this a bit too industrious for me. I am in favor of pretending we have a club. To me, that is superior to a real one and all of its administrative reality.

I suspect that we may ever so slightly be going overboard.

[storeynicholas]

All this talk of registration, fees and heraldry is making this a bit too industrious for me. I am in favor of pretending we have a club. To me, that is superior to a real one and all of its administrative reality.

I suspect that we may ever so slightly be going overboard.

And overboard from space ship at that. But is this not what is needed in our lives? There is too much reality and realism, too many practicalities and too little optimism in the world today. We really are a kind of travellers' club because we believe that the hopeful journey is everything. I am very fond of the Great Dorothy Parker's aphorism: And when you get there, you find that there's no there, there. How true - in relation to just about everything but it will not stop us travelling will it? As for the exploration of devices etc. it is quite interesting to find out about these things and it is intriguing to learn that, in the modern age, the College of Arms continues its functions with a considerable building and quite a number of Heralds and officials. Bearing all that in mind, I imagine that the organization probably doesn't even break even from income.

Is the lilac and white striped tie agreed and on then? The best quote for this, so far, is probably Benson & Clegg (it's around £20 with a minimum order of only 24, which is admirable). Concordia what do you think about this? Wherever it comes from - (if come it shall) -

1. do we want the stripes slanting in the usual American way or the usual British way? 2. is it to be equal alternating stripes of 1 inch?
3. without other features on this tie?

The more that I have thought about this the better I like it and I think that we should seek some inexpensive but effective protection for the colours at least so far as social clubs are concerned - racing colours etc don't concern us (well, not in the club at any rate!).

I have been thinking about whether there should be a life president and I think that there should be - but maybe called the King of Prussia of the Retrocentric Club. Why not Life President you say, and why on earth such a strange title when he was a Kaiser anyway and then an Emperor but not exactly a king. Well, I believe that it would give the club especial distinction to be overseen by a person bearing such an impressive title (similar to the King Rat of the Water Rats). Secondly, Villon seems to have been something of - well - a villain and so, continuing this theme, I thought of John Carter who was a notorious Cornish Smuggler, nicknamed The King of Prussia because of a physical resemblance, the name being commemorated in the name of a cove (where he plied his trade) and several taverns. So there we are. What do you think of that? I suggest that the LL founder or a moderator should be offered this but on the basis that there are still no rules so there are no distracting duties. However, I do accept that not everyone sees mirth in all this.
NJS