New Member

[jb]

I am a new member here and would like to introduce myself. Over 30 years ago I worked as an apprentice to a tailor in a medium sized city in the Midwest US. He sent out a lot of suits to a CMT house, but also did a lesser number of bench-made coats. He started me out by tying my thimble finger in the proper position to get it accustomed to the proper hand sewing position. I worked long hours and eventually got to where I did any hand sewing he needed done. I padded lapels, sewed canvas and twill tape, coat linings, trouser curtains and bottoms, and also did finish work like edge stitching, button holes, and collars.

I started in the business when my (now) ex-wife was a graduate student in costume design. We wanted to go into business together eventually. I really appreciate how this forum has been enriched by the scholarly approach taken by some of the members of here to document the evolution of style in men’s clothing. My wife had to do similar research in order to get period line and garment types right for various plays and she had a number of bound 19th century Godey’s Lady’s Books that she referred to regularly. I learned the history of women’s couture and my favorite was Balenciaga for his great vision coupled with the technical ability to make any garment that came out of his or any other workshop. I learned a bit about cutting from developing patterns and cutting tailored clothes for the theater as my boss would (rightly!) not permit me to get shears anywhere near customer cloth.

As life took its turns, I left the business and went into corporate life where the backbone of my wardrobe was made by my old boss. I then took the entrepreneurial path and didn’t wear a suit to work for 10 years. We have sold the business, so I am now a bespoke customer freed from the need to buy work suits.

I have some random thoughts after reading a fair amount on this forum:

Cloth has changed a lot since I started in tailoring. The changes were coming, and have clearly accelerated. 12/13 oz. cloth was considered on the lighter side of mid-weight and was the year round choice. 9/10 oz. was summer weight. We had a few Super 100s from England and Zegna had just started showing a new range of Super 120s. Now it seems that many cloths are like tissue paper and the numbers go ever higher (or the micron designation lower). My boss would have hated most of them. I understand the lure of the higher designated Supers, but I like the old fashioned stuff. I particularly love the clear finish Scottish twists of upwards of 15 oz with lots of colors incorporated that aren’t thick because of the heavy twist, tailor beautifully, and look good all day long. I really admire Michael Alden’s advocacy efforts on the part of the great traditional cloths. I am humbled just by reading his descriptions of them, which is combined with the great knowledge of how and where they are made that backs up his prose.

I see that word usage is a little looser than when I was working as a tailor. I was quickly corrected by a salesman from London making the rounds that a suit is made from “cloth” and that “fabric” is used for linings. After a while I recognized the wisdom of making that distinction because a cloth can be shrunk and stretched by pressing into a shape that it will then hold. That is why people can take apart all the garments that they want without ever finding the real magic of a great coat. The cutter and coat maker have to be in perfect harmony so that the actual shape is created for the way the coat was cut in order for it to both fit and drape properly. My old boss showed me several examples of coats that customers brought to him that were cut and sewn correctly, but had problems because they were not shaped by pressing properly during construction.

Another word that appears in descriptions of sleeveheads and shoulders around the forum here sometimes is “pleats” to describe the ripples that can be made when two edges are sewn together where one is longer than the other. Thomas Mahon wrote a wonderful piece on shoulder pattern matching in his blog that illustrates that type of seam. Those ripples are not pleats, as pleats are created where a piece of cloth is folded onto itself and then releases the fullness above or below where it is sewn. In dressmaking those are called gathers, but we just called it fullness. My boss would have not liked the Neapolitan shoulder where the sleevehead is not supported and has extra fullness that causes ripples above and to the outside of the scapula.

Of course there was no Internet so our information on what was going on in tailoring in different parts of the world was limited. At that time, Italians were seen as creating structured shoulders and the US as the home of natural shoulders. Now the world seems reversed. (Although it was never really that simple).

My boss collected examples of great tailoring and I used to enjoy looking at them. He had a Brioni from the 1950s that was beautiful. I liked a German overcoat from the 1920s. My favorite was a pre-World War II Oxxford that was incredible. It was 3/8 lined and the work that went into creating a bellows lining to cover their bellows pockets had to be seen to be believed.

At that time, Oxxford, Hickey Freeman, H. Freeman, Southwick, and no doubt a few others that I am failing to mention still made clothing in the US completely or mostly by hand. H. Freeman made beautiful trousers with a one piece curtain felled by hand. There was no doubt though, that the wind was blowing toward disposable fashion in place of craftsmanship.

For all (any?) of you that have read this far, thank you for making this forum the excellent place that it is. Thank you also to all of the tailors here who keep alive the ideal of fine craftsmanship in the apparel arts.

Joel

[storeynicholas]

I am sure that MANY read to the end; because your entry was (if I may say so), well-written, interested and interesting and I am only one of those many who will look forward to reading much more.
NJS

[Cufflink79]

First of all welcome to the London Lounge Joel.

I agree with NJS your post is very well written, and I'm sure you will be able to give us all a good insight to not only today's tailoring but the days past as well.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[masterfred]

Joel, welcome, and thanks for the thoughtful introduction. We have several tailors on the forum, but none, I dare say, with your career progression.

Maybe the call of shears, needle, and thread will again draw you in with its siren song. God knows we need another qualified tailor, for certain.

[Aristide]

Welcome and thank you for your very interesting perspective.

[jb]

Thank you gentlemen for your taking time to offer welcomes.

Masterfred, I am afraid that in my best days I would not call myself a tailor in the presence of the tailors represented on this forum, as I never had enough complete experience. I actually would like to do some hand work again, but my eyes are not what they used to be. I keep avoiding getting reading glasses, but when we go to dimly lit restaurants with nice buff colored menus written in fine script I have to ask my wife what is on the menu.

At any rate I have discovered that my "eye" is not up to speed either. I find that I am complacent about flaws in garments that previously would bother me. However, since I need to order a whole new round of suits, jackets, and trousers the juices are flowing again.

I can see that this forum is going to be expensive for me.

Joel

[le.gentleman]

Welcome to the lounge Joel! Do you know what happened to the 50ies Kiton, the 20ies overcoat, and the Oxxford garment? Is there any chance to get pictures from those?

[jb]

Thank you, le.gentleman.

I am sorry, but I don't know what became of them. I have not seen my old boss in many years and he has retired. I am planning on looking him up iwhenever I get back there and I will ask.

Regards,
Joel

[the tailor]

Welcome Joel.

Sounds like the taillor in your past may still be there!

All the best Sir.

[jb]

Thanks for the kind welcome Des. I have enjoyed the photos of your work. Please keep posting them.

Cheers,
Joel

[Sator]

At that time, Italians were seen as creating structured shoulders and the US as the home of natural shoulders. Now the world seems reversed. (Although it was never really that simple).

It appears that this is not the first full rotation of the fashion wheel (so to speak) for in the 19th century, padded shoulders were referred to as "American shoulders" in the UK (Waugh, The Cut of Men's Clothes, 1964)

[Sator]

Of course there was no Internet so our information on what was going on in tailoring in different parts of the world was limited. At that time, Italians were seen as creating structured shoulders and the US as the home of natural shoulders. Now the world seems reversed. (Although it was never really that simple).

Joel

Dear Joel,

although it's been around six months since you posted this, it has really resonated in my memory. I have become rather interested in the old American school of tailoring. American tailoring textbooks have methods particular to them. Coats are cut with more drape, canvasses (often linen) cut on the bias, and I understand that shoulders were often natural. Textbooks also always use the term "sack coat" as a generic term for the British English "lounge coat".

Older books describe the stereotypical Italian school coat as being much more structured, just as you say. So it would appear that at some point in time, the now largely lost American school was at the cutting edge of soft tailoring - far more so that the British or the Italians today. Apparel Arts says that you didn't have to travel to get fine tailoring, as American tailors were as good as any in the world in those days.

Can tell us a little bit about your recollections of classical American tailoring as you remember being taught? I think it's very important because you have a living recollection of a bespoke tailoring school that has largely become extinct.

I look forward to your reply.

[jb]

Sator,

Thank you for your inquiry. I have to say that I have enjoyed my time here at LL immensely and I really appreciate your continuing to post from classic cutting and tailoring sources.

My boss came from Europe where he had learned the trade from someone who worked for Attaturk's tailor. He had worked with a number of people in the US by the time I met him. His interests were, in his words, "natural shoulder" and "soft tailoring".

In contrast, I wish I had copies of the Zegna books of the time where they showed pictures of their clothing with their swatches. The shoulders and upper chests were all quite structured and shoulders roped. We also made roped shoulders for clients who requested that look, but in conjunction with softer shoulders. The Zegna cloths were heavier and firmer than what I see from them today. I had a fine gray herringbone in a 100s Zegna cloth that was about 12/13 ounces that seemed as firm (in my fallible memory) as the 13 ounce Lessers today.

My coats had more ease than the ones Chris cuts for me today. We cut the armholes pretty high, and extended the shoulders enough to ensure that the customer's deltoids would not show at the top of the sleeve and to support a bit of width at the chest. There were no large folds to grab, but a bit of ease. Making this shoulder required a pad for support. Collars had to hug the neck and backs were clean to about half way down the rear armhole from the shoulder seam, and then there was also some ease at the blades that showed itself as some extra width.

Waists were also cut with more room compared to either English or Italian tailoring of the time. I could easily wear a cashmere sweater under a buttoned sport coat and only feel it in the armhole. We cut all canvas on grain, including the haircloth in the chest and we did not use the old fashioned heavy stiff haircloth. We tried to make do with few layers and have the coats soft enough so that you could crumple them in your hands.

As you think of other questions, please ask away.

Cheers,
Joel

[Cary Grant]

Thanks for bumping this. I missed the original post. An informative read.

[Sator]

Thank you Joel. That's really interesting.

I am sorry, was your old boss Italian or from another part of Europe? I have read in Villarosa & Angeli (English translation from the Italian) that the Central European school of tailoring was also quite soft, and sackier in cut than classical Italian or English school tailoring. I suspect the Dutchman Scholte is representative of the Central European school. The old German and Austrian schools are quite soft as well. Villarosa also states that at the time of writing, the Central European school lived on in Eastern Europe - presumably in former parts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, like Vass with their Austro-Hungarian styled shoes.

Do you also recall what, if any, texts were kept in the cutting room? For example, was Regal's or the Modern Mitchell System kept there for quick reference? And were there many tailors around who were brought up on these classical American texts? I know that both Chris Despos and JeffreyD were first taught to cut based on systems from these texts.

Lastly, American textbooks I own up to the mid-20th century refer to lounge coats as "sack coats". The most recent of these is Poulin, 1952. The following link to an Apparel Arts text repeatedly uses the term "sack jacket".

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... php?t=6862

For example:

In business suits there are two types of construction, one the so-called lounge model which features ease of line and rougher fabrics, the other the sack jacket which is built along: body tracing lines and is best adapted to the smoother cloths. With the present vogue for rough suitings, the lounge model is in the ascendant.

That is the first time I have come across the term "lounge jacket" in an American text of this time period.

This sentence is also fascinating:

Odd jackets of tweed, flannel or gabardine and golfing clothes require the same treatment as sack and dress clothes.

It seems to make a distinction between "sack clothes" and "dress clothes".

Was the use of the term "sack clothes/jacket/coat" still current 30 years ago? If so, was it used with customers or was it used in the cutting room as a tailoring term only? Did older tailor use the term only, as opposed to the younger tailors? I am curious to date the point when the term "sack coat" fell out of general use, as a common generic term for lounge styled coats.