new ruling on bespoke

[WF]

Here's a link to an article from vogue online, apologies if this has already been mentioned

http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/daily/08061 ... e-row.aspx

[Aristide]

"I don't accept that the average man on the street doesn't understand the difference," Mark Henderson, ceo of Gieves & Hawkes and chairman of the Savile Row Bespoke association, tells the Financial Times. "You are really looking at the difference between a fine painting and a print."

Interesting analogy....

[rjman]

"You are really looking at the difference between a fine painting and a print."

Interesting analogy....

Interesting indeed. Lobb St. James used the same analogy in saying how their shoes are better than ordinary RTW: the difference between "a Rembrandt and a penny print."

[Bishop of Briggs]

"I don't accept that the average man on the street doesn't understand the difference," Mark Henderson, ceo of Gieves & Hawkes and chairman of the Savile Row Bespoke association, tells the Financial Times. "You are really looking at the difference between a fine painting and a print."

Interesting analogy....

That is a bit rich coming from Gieves & Hawkes. Number 1 is a shadow of its former self.

[storeynicholas]

One point which is rather worrying is that the traditional businesses seem to want to preserve the term 'bespoke' for real bespoke but that doesn't stop them inventing terms like "personal tailoring" and "entry level bespoke" to beguile customers into thinking that they are getting other than MTM. Talk about having your cake and eating it...
NJS

[sartorius]

That is a bit rich coming from Gieves & Hawkes. Number 1 is a shadow of its former self.

Perhaps you could elaborate? The subject of the thread is bespoke, and in my view G&H are first rate. Their head cutter has been with the firm for 22 years and they have been a more stable business than many others on SR because they own the freehold of their building.

[sartorius]

One point which is rather worrying is that the traditional businesses seem to want to preserve the term 'bespoke' for real bespoke but that doesn't stop them inventing terms like "personal tailoring" and "entry level bespoke" to beguile customers into thinking that they are getting other than MTM. Talk about having your cake and eating it...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with diversifying one's business whilst at the same time striving to protect what you do best.

[storeynicholas]

That's partly what the other side says - for their own business reasons, you understand. But let's get one thing clear, when you say 'diversify' do you mean 'dilute'?
NJS..

[sartorius]

That's partly what the other side says - for their own business reasons, you understand. But let's get one thing clear, when you say 'diversify' do you mean 'dilute'?

I would interpret the effort to protect "bespoke" as being partly an effort to prevent dilution.

[storeynicholas]

But what are you protecting? The true artists will survive. The true customers will know the difference. The twisters will always be there and so will the idiots to be taken in.
NJS

[sartorius]

But what are you protecting? The true artists will survive.

I would disagree. Talent alone is not enough. All artists need patrons.

[storeynicholas]

I have dealt with this already here and in the original thread - to the effect that the real customers for the real thing will always be there - but I am bound to point out Dr Johnson's reference to Lord Chesterfield, of a patron: "Is not a patron, my lord, one who looks with unconcern at a man struggling for life in the water, and when he reaches ground, encumbers him with help?"
NJS

[sartorius]

the real customers for the real thing will always be there

I don't doubt that some customers will always be in the market for bespoke, but no business these days can afford to be so complacent as to assume that either (a) the pool of those who buy bespoke items will not diminish or (b) that they will gravitate towards that business simply because of the quality of its artisans. This may have been true in the past but I do not believe that it is true today. That is why the power of the brand is so significant in today's marketplace - companies have to reach a customer pool spread out across the globe (who will have neither the means nor the inclination to spend time finding and building a relationship with a tailor as a prerequisite of patronising him or her) and in an increasingly competitive environment.

It is a different question whether brand exploitation leads to dilution of the product, but in any case it seems to me that many of the posts on this forum assume that this has happened. I suspect that some (most?) of those making the comments have no direct experience of the product in question. It is easy to assert that Kilgour and Huntsman bespoke must be inferior simply because the Kilgour and Huntsman brands are now seen on the catwalk or on the pages of international fashion magazines, but this does not follow. Don't conflate brand exploitation with declining quality, unless of course you have direct evidence to support it.

[storeynicholas]

The brand is the name and the Savile Row names were some of the first 'brands' out there - long before the fashion houses with their catwalk fashion. They were market leaders in products that never came off the rail or out of a drawer. Because of this they were very special. I am not going to name names, in this connection, but I do have direct experience of an old tailoring firm, which started stocking RTW about 10 years ago - seriously embarrassing tat too, skulking on a corner rail, to the evident humiliation of the old-time cutters. I did not notice a diminution in the quality of their bespoke work - but my old cutter soon retired, I think bearing away some silent disdain. However, to my mind, it diminishes the strength of the brand when they start offering 'personal tailoring' and RTW. Let's face it, bespoke tailoring is for a much smaller market now than it has ever been - the number of artisans is a clue - 19th century censuses are evidence of the number of workers - tens of thousands of shoe makers in London alone. Moreover, the remaining bespoke market is largely overseas - the USA at the top of most lists, with Germany, Japan, Canada, South Africa, Australia, the Middle East now also (again) Russia and so on -with very little UK business because of the continuing - even spiralling - national decay; educational, economic and social. I can't see the RTW and 'personal tailoring' options appealing to the home market (such as it is) and foreigners who want British tailoring are going to go for the real thing - so, probably, the loss of dignity (for that is what I mean) will be in vain. We must wait and see. For the sake of the businesses concerned (and all those who have a stake in their products - or their profits), let us hope that these fears are as foundless as you say. However, I would suggest that, instead of feeling obliged to push tat and just preserve the terminology of 'bespoke' for an ever-decreasing circle of clients, the industry should get up on its hind legs and get the real message across - that Savile Row was originally the best and, across the board, remains the best, for real bespoke tailoring - but they need a better copywriter than I. Part of all this trouble is caused, of course, because ill-educated money-grubbing plutocrats have replaced aristocrats and gormless 'celebrities' have supplanted professionals in their buying power - because we live in the age which panders to the tastes of the common man.
NJS

[Costi]

Was the launching of the A-Klasse a success for Mercedes?
I should think traditional Huntsman customers are not thrilled at the idea of the name (brand) being associated with fashion catwalks. I think in our days bespoke firms stand FOR bespoke AGAINST ready-to-wear, which is why I see it is a paradox and a form of abdication to start using their name to sell RTW. Bespoke is a handmade personal product - how does RTW advertise for the firm's ability to deliver that? It is like a kosher food shop opening a pork corner for christians...
Ultimately the RTW line may prove counterproductive when a customer wearing an ill-fitting jacket walks out the door and tells his friends he is wearing a Huntsman. Of course the connaisseur will notice it is a RTW item and know Huntsman can do better with bespoke, but what about those who don't? After all it is them the firm is trying to reach by "diversifying".
Rather than make the name (whether Huntsman or another) no longer synonymous with "bespoke" and "top quality" they might be better off inventing a new brand name for their RTW. But I'm afraid they are ill-advised by "luxury brand marketing experts". Short term profits resulting from such brand name exploitation may eventually kill the name on the long term. You can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin it once.