Apparel Arts / Esky Series Looking back your feedback Needed
So it has been a long while since I have posted anything major and many of you have wondered about it. Looking back at things it is sometimes hard for me to imagine how much time and energy I spent in writing these AA/ Esky articles. Fortunately or unfortunately my circumstances no longer allow the luxury of such endeavors. Please keep in mind that it took me an average of 80-100 hours of work to create one of these posts, especially in the last 1.5 year.
However, I always wanted to do 2 or 3 more posts in particular with one of them dealing in great detail about what was considered a good RTW shoe construction in 1930s. It was called the Art of Shoemaking or something if I remember... I think it would have been a great read for most members who have no access to such rare text and should have dispelled many of the commonly known “myths”. Unfortunately I never found enough time to complete that massive footwear post I was trying to write.
I think I can confidently say that 4 years ago when we started this series at the old London Lounge forum, there was not an iota of this wonderful information available online anywhere… at least not in English. So over the years this series accumulated a variety of threads each addressing different aspect of menswear. One of the key concepts behind starting this series (& to some extent even this forum LL) was that in our world we are bombarded everyday by extremities of fashion in menswear whether for good or for bad they certainly effect the average man a lot more than we usually think.
Few people have the time and money to research how a specific fashion piece is divorced from the elegance of correct proportions and more importantly what is correct fit? People have been used to the whims of men’s designers so much for past few decades that now there does not exist a “median” understanding of menswear so to speak. What I mean by this is that people no longer know, what are the correct proportions and how should a jacket or a suit really fit? So it is with that purpose this series was started to give people an idea what are considered some of the classical proportions and how these clothes were are to be worn in the correct manner. The idea is (or was that) once you know what is considered a “median” so to speak… you will know how far you want to deviate from that line but if you don’t know that, it will be very hard to tell how far you have came in terms of varying proportions and fit.
So all that said, the main purpose of this post for me is to collect specific feedback from you (the readers) as to how useful you found the series in general and specifically? What were some aspects that you were able to learn from and how were you able to use it in our times? Were there combinations presented in the series (shirts, ties, various odd elements) that you found useful and could have not discovered elsewhere or was there something you learnt from the fit, proportions and over all styling of jackets and trousers?
On the contrary if you were unable to use this series (for whatever reason) please share your thoughts as to why you found it difficult to follow. What could’ve or can make this series even better?
I know some of the major criticisms were that I often dwelled too much on suggesting various styles and combinations, which may seemed to stem from my own imagination rather than the actual illustrations. The other one was that I often described illustrations outside of the context in which they were presented.
Well, I am or always have been aware of these two suggestions and would like to explain something (if this above applies to you). The reason why I often went into tangents and digressed (although I don’t think it was digressions but still…) was because I have been fortunate to own 95% of these illustrations and AA / Esky text at one point or another. It was because I have had so much exposure to this subject that I felt necessary to point out various things that pertained to that particular illustration that was being discussed or a certain element in it. Often when going through illustration selection for a post, I would select 4 or 5 near identical illustrations where the main article was the same but used in a different context / setting. So at that point it would have been rather excessive to put all 4 or 5 almost identical illustrations out there just because there was a line or two that was different in its explanation. Thereby I picked the best possible one and then while explaining it in the post went on and further discussed various settings in which this was observed or could be used.
As I mentioned above I still want to do a few more of these posts but when…. That I cannot guarantee! So in the meantime please take part in this thread and provide feedback if these posts effected you in anyway and how?
I look forward to hearing from you gents
Regards
etutee
However, I always wanted to do 2 or 3 more posts in particular with one of them dealing in great detail about what was considered a good RTW shoe construction in 1930s. It was called the Art of Shoemaking or something if I remember... I think it would have been a great read for most members who have no access to such rare text and should have dispelled many of the commonly known “myths”. Unfortunately I never found enough time to complete that massive footwear post I was trying to write.
I think I can confidently say that 4 years ago when we started this series at the old London Lounge forum, there was not an iota of this wonderful information available online anywhere… at least not in English. So over the years this series accumulated a variety of threads each addressing different aspect of menswear. One of the key concepts behind starting this series (& to some extent even this forum LL) was that in our world we are bombarded everyday by extremities of fashion in menswear whether for good or for bad they certainly effect the average man a lot more than we usually think.
Few people have the time and money to research how a specific fashion piece is divorced from the elegance of correct proportions and more importantly what is correct fit? People have been used to the whims of men’s designers so much for past few decades that now there does not exist a “median” understanding of menswear so to speak. What I mean by this is that people no longer know, what are the correct proportions and how should a jacket or a suit really fit? So it is with that purpose this series was started to give people an idea what are considered some of the classical proportions and how these clothes were are to be worn in the correct manner. The idea is (or was that) once you know what is considered a “median” so to speak… you will know how far you want to deviate from that line but if you don’t know that, it will be very hard to tell how far you have came in terms of varying proportions and fit.
So all that said, the main purpose of this post for me is to collect specific feedback from you (the readers) as to how useful you found the series in general and specifically? What were some aspects that you were able to learn from and how were you able to use it in our times? Were there combinations presented in the series (shirts, ties, various odd elements) that you found useful and could have not discovered elsewhere or was there something you learnt from the fit, proportions and over all styling of jackets and trousers?
On the contrary if you were unable to use this series (for whatever reason) please share your thoughts as to why you found it difficult to follow. What could’ve or can make this series even better?
I know some of the major criticisms were that I often dwelled too much on suggesting various styles and combinations, which may seemed to stem from my own imagination rather than the actual illustrations. The other one was that I often described illustrations outside of the context in which they were presented.
Well, I am or always have been aware of these two suggestions and would like to explain something (if this above applies to you). The reason why I often went into tangents and digressed (although I don’t think it was digressions but still…) was because I have been fortunate to own 95% of these illustrations and AA / Esky text at one point or another. It was because I have had so much exposure to this subject that I felt necessary to point out various things that pertained to that particular illustration that was being discussed or a certain element in it. Often when going through illustration selection for a post, I would select 4 or 5 near identical illustrations where the main article was the same but used in a different context / setting. So at that point it would have been rather excessive to put all 4 or 5 almost identical illustrations out there just because there was a line or two that was different in its explanation. Thereby I picked the best possible one and then while explaining it in the post went on and further discussed various settings in which this was observed or could be used.
As I mentioned above I still want to do a few more of these posts but when…. That I cannot guarantee! So in the meantime please take part in this thread and provide feedback if these posts effected you in anyway and how?
I look forward to hearing from you gents
Regards
etutee
I love the articles! I think they are absolutely fantastic, and while I am sure that we could all think of odd little things you have missed out, or fantasise about further articles, it remains that those you have written are excellent and cover virtually every situation. You mention images you never used; if you have scanned these, then would it be possible to set up a directory with one huge jumble of these, with no commentary, just to let us see more combinations?
Etutee,
Your posts have been my major source of knowledge about classic clothing and dressing. You are an inspiration to every member of the London lounge and to anyone willing to learn about classic men's clothing. Elegance is something you cannot learn nor teach, but apart from that, your articles are amongst the biggest collections of knowledge on classic men’s clothing on the internet.
One of the most important thing is that you introduced me to the world of 'fit', as my use of jackets and suits is reduced and recent but increasing and thanks to your explanations of fit issues such as types of shoulders, structure, drape, waist line, button stance, back of a jacket, vents, lapel/collar shape and size, armholes, sleeves... I've learned to judge fittings properly and understand MTM and bespoke clothing better.
Another aspect you have taught me a lot about is style. One can dress perfectly fine, according to the rules, classically, and yet have no style. But with your use of the AA and Esquire illustrations and your own recommendations, you have taught be many things: colour combinations for different occasions, varying on the level of formality, the time of the year or of the day, etc; combining patterns, stripes, dots, to add style to one’s dress; different styles of odd jackets for different occasions, such as on a boat in the summer, on the golf club, in university, on the mountain for skiing, on the forest hunting, etc; elegant and at the same time practical teachings, such as on summer combining a light coloured, lightweight jacket with lightweight dark trousers, or sweater vests under an odd jacket in winter, or how to harmonize a pocket square with a boutonnière and a tie; basic aspects of accessories, such as different types of shoes and what to wear them with, or different types of hats and what to wear them with; how to express oneself as well as keeping clothing classic, like knowing when and how to wear a bowtie, wearing coloured socks, avoiding white shirts, etc; and giving me all the knowledge needed about formalwear.
I did notice often that you went on to describe in your articles things that weren’t illustrated or the topic you were on, but I liked that because nearly always you did that you were showing possibilities, or giving helpful judgements about how to make things adapted to one’s body and style. So, I just want to thank you very much for your magnificent articles. Although I’m one of those who dreams about having many more articles, judging objectively, going through the articles, I realise you’ve covered so many things that there is no big gap anywhere. I only want to say, like NCW, that I would love it if you could scan the illustrations that you have which haven’t been posted elsewhere on the lounge, even if not all of them at a time, but whenever you can, a few, for having as many of them as possible on the web is most helpful for when we want to look for new options and learn.
Your posts have been my major source of knowledge about classic clothing and dressing. You are an inspiration to every member of the London lounge and to anyone willing to learn about classic men's clothing. Elegance is something you cannot learn nor teach, but apart from that, your articles are amongst the biggest collections of knowledge on classic men’s clothing on the internet.
One of the most important thing is that you introduced me to the world of 'fit', as my use of jackets and suits is reduced and recent but increasing and thanks to your explanations of fit issues such as types of shoulders, structure, drape, waist line, button stance, back of a jacket, vents, lapel/collar shape and size, armholes, sleeves... I've learned to judge fittings properly and understand MTM and bespoke clothing better.
Another aspect you have taught me a lot about is style. One can dress perfectly fine, according to the rules, classically, and yet have no style. But with your use of the AA and Esquire illustrations and your own recommendations, you have taught be many things: colour combinations for different occasions, varying on the level of formality, the time of the year or of the day, etc; combining patterns, stripes, dots, to add style to one’s dress; different styles of odd jackets for different occasions, such as on a boat in the summer, on the golf club, in university, on the mountain for skiing, on the forest hunting, etc; elegant and at the same time practical teachings, such as on summer combining a light coloured, lightweight jacket with lightweight dark trousers, or sweater vests under an odd jacket in winter, or how to harmonize a pocket square with a boutonnière and a tie; basic aspects of accessories, such as different types of shoes and what to wear them with, or different types of hats and what to wear them with; how to express oneself as well as keeping clothing classic, like knowing when and how to wear a bowtie, wearing coloured socks, avoiding white shirts, etc; and giving me all the knowledge needed about formalwear.
I did notice often that you went on to describe in your articles things that weren’t illustrated or the topic you were on, but I liked that because nearly always you did that you were showing possibilities, or giving helpful judgements about how to make things adapted to one’s body and style. So, I just want to thank you very much for your magnificent articles. Although I’m one of those who dreams about having many more articles, judging objectively, going through the articles, I realise you’ve covered so many things that there is no big gap anywhere. I only want to say, like NCW, that I would love it if you could scan the illustrations that you have which haven’t been posted elsewhere on the lounge, even if not all of them at a time, but whenever you can, a few, for having as many of them as possible on the web is most helpful for when we want to look for new options and learn.
Dear Etutee,
I can only underline what Guille has written. According to my opinion, your contributions make out an essential part of the LL. They are extremely informative, elegantly written with appropriate illustrations and a constant source of inspirations. I have learnt a lot, particularly regarding color combinations and have applied some of your proposals in the "projects" with my tailor. Many thanks again!
I can only underline what Guille has written. According to my opinion, your contributions make out an essential part of the LL. They are extremely informative, elegantly written with appropriate illustrations and a constant source of inspirations. I have learnt a lot, particularly regarding color combinations and have applied some of your proposals in the "projects" with my tailor. Many thanks again!
One more thing I would like to point out is that another one of the reasons why I never stuck to just one and one illustration alone in explaining it was because that sort of crystallizes it so to speak. It makes it stagnant and ‘very’ one dimensional. Moreover, focusing on pair of shirt-tie combo ‘as-it-is’ too much leads to the dreaded idea of “outfits” where men today need to have something altogether otherwise they can’t think of mixing and matching.
Part of the beauty of these pictures and texts (in my opinion at least) was that they were always interchangeable one way or another. That is almost always you saw me cross mentioning between the various parts of that series or elsewhere. All of that stuff was related to a huge extent and that was (or still is) one of the main points I wanted to make.
I specifically omitted labels or names because that is all most of us know about these days. Pick up any of your favorite men’s magazine and you will see labels and names plastered everywhere and very little is done to explain why xyz designer item matches with abc designer accessory. I am not all against these magazines as after all they are still some of the last remaining sources of information (or disinformation if you want to look at it that way) to the majority of men who rarely if ever visit internet forums for style cues. I just wish every now and then they would come forward and explain why a particular designer fashion does NOT work because it is so far divorced from the ‘median’ line that it makes it totally impractical. This unfortunately never happens in most of the magazines.
Please post your thoughts if you ever read all or any part of the series and whether or not it was helpful.
Many thanks for those who have posted already with kind words.
regards
etutee
P.S I also want to thank all members who came forward to offer help with this series. Especially Dopey who always reached out.
Part of the beauty of these pictures and texts (in my opinion at least) was that they were always interchangeable one way or another. That is almost always you saw me cross mentioning between the various parts of that series or elsewhere. All of that stuff was related to a huge extent and that was (or still is) one of the main points I wanted to make.
I specifically omitted labels or names because that is all most of us know about these days. Pick up any of your favorite men’s magazine and you will see labels and names plastered everywhere and very little is done to explain why xyz designer item matches with abc designer accessory. I am not all against these magazines as after all they are still some of the last remaining sources of information (or disinformation if you want to look at it that way) to the majority of men who rarely if ever visit internet forums for style cues. I just wish every now and then they would come forward and explain why a particular designer fashion does NOT work because it is so far divorced from the ‘median’ line that it makes it totally impractical. This unfortunately never happens in most of the magazines.
Please post your thoughts if you ever read all or any part of the series and whether or not it was helpful.
Many thanks for those who have posted already with kind words.
regards
etutee
P.S I also want to thank all members who came forward to offer help with this series. Especially Dopey who always reached out.
Dear Etutee,
Please do not doubt for a second the utility of your posts. What better expression of gratitutude for your effort and encouragement to continue it can one think of other than the comments following each and every one of your posts? Those praises are all well deserved and your work has been and continues to be an excellent source of inspiration and an outstanding course of elegance applied to dress.
However, your articles are not a textbook. They are the form in which you found it suitable to share some of your knowledge and some of your personal tastes and ideas. Therefore, while I appreciate you welcome any suggestions for improvement, I don't think your work deserves any criticism, because your personal contribution is an intrinsic and essential part of your articles. They are a series of "sui generis" writings and there is really no term of comparison, at least not in the LL.
If you had half as much fun writing as we did reading the articles, then I am sure that you will continue this great series. I know it's hard work, but I am sure you enjoy it and I hope the moral reward of our gratitude is enough to keep you going.
I subscribe to the suggestion of compiling a collection of scanned AA/Esky images in the LL Photojournal for all to browse. Nothing explains elegance better than pictures - and the more, the better. I often go back through the Photorjournal and your articles in search of inspiration for a new jacket or a summer shirt. Please just ask if any help is needed in this endeavour - I am sure that plenty will be offered.
Please do not doubt for a second the utility of your posts. What better expression of gratitutude for your effort and encouragement to continue it can one think of other than the comments following each and every one of your posts? Those praises are all well deserved and your work has been and continues to be an excellent source of inspiration and an outstanding course of elegance applied to dress.
However, your articles are not a textbook. They are the form in which you found it suitable to share some of your knowledge and some of your personal tastes and ideas. Therefore, while I appreciate you welcome any suggestions for improvement, I don't think your work deserves any criticism, because your personal contribution is an intrinsic and essential part of your articles. They are a series of "sui generis" writings and there is really no term of comparison, at least not in the LL.
If you had half as much fun writing as we did reading the articles, then I am sure that you will continue this great series. I know it's hard work, but I am sure you enjoy it and I hope the moral reward of our gratitude is enough to keep you going.
I subscribe to the suggestion of compiling a collection of scanned AA/Esky images in the LL Photojournal for all to browse. Nothing explains elegance better than pictures - and the more, the better. I often go back through the Photorjournal and your articles in search of inspiration for a new jacket or a summer shirt. Please just ask if any help is needed in this endeavour - I am sure that plenty will be offered.
I received much more than I gave and so any assistance I offered was more than well compensated.Etutee wrote: . .
P.S I also want to thank all members who came forward to offer help with this series. Especially Dopey who always reached out.
In response to your original question, I found that one of the most important contributions you made was explaining the social and historical context of the illustrations in a way that illuminated the intention of the subject. For example, understanding that a donegal suit worn to the racetrack was an illustration of casual sportclothes that might not have been worn to the office even if another tweed suit might be shown in the office in a different illustration helps to understand the differences in cut and details. Sometimes those considerations translate to today's context and sometimes they don't, but you need to understand them first to make the determination.
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Dear Etutee,
I always enjoyed your highly informative postings! When I was travelling, I used to print them so I had something to read - that was perfect. If I were to put all those printed pages together, I had a very nice book .
Thanks again and I look forward to reading from you in the future - take your time!
I always enjoyed your highly informative postings! When I was travelling, I used to print them so I had something to read - that was perfect. If I were to put all those printed pages together, I had a very nice book .
Thanks again and I look forward to reading from you in the future - take your time!
I would echo the last reply - 'take your time' - better to have a continuation in due course than to lose the benefit of your further articles outright: they represent a contemporary record of styles which remain relevant down to our own time and, linked with your keen observations, are a boon not just to LL members but also to its many guests (who often, in browsing terms, at most times, outnumber logged-in members) - and that is around the world; so when you speak of Dopey having reached out to help you, just reflect upon the many thousands to whom you have reached out, also to inform. To continue that must be worth finding the time. However, no one could begrudge you the right to find the success that you deserve in your other endeavours.
NJS
NJS
NCW wrote: You mention images you never used; if you have scanned these, then would it be possible to set up a directory with one huge jumble of these, with no commentary, just to let us see more combinations?
yep that is the main problem. I only scanned the ones that were needed for the post because I have never owned a scanner. Moreover, it is quite hard to scan images from these books.
hmm... I am glad that reading them was fun because creating them certainly wasn't. I am not good at typing and trying to write 20-30 word document post took forever to get completed. Fortunately in my last huge post I asked Dopey to help out with the text scanning software and made life a little easier.Costi wrote: If you had half as much fun writing as we did reading the articles, then I am sure that you will continue this great series. I know it's hard work, but I am sure you enjoy it and I hope the moral reward of our gratitude is enough to keep you going.
um... guys I am sure there are more of you out there who read this series so please add a comment ot two. NOT for prasies or something but what specifically you would have liked to see? An overcoat article, a hat article, another shoe article, shirtmaking (actually I thougth of this but over the years Alex has posted some incredible stuff on this matter plus shirts were never AA's strong points)....
was there an article that you found most helpful beside illustrations? If so which one?
Often when deciding subject matters I like to stick to the ones that can be used the most nowadays with the execption of that tails post I did. For example I had enough material to create a HUGE hatmaking post with many illustartions but discard that idea many times because very few members wear hats and those that do already know about some of the finer aspects of mens headwear.
Shoes I always wanted to do personally but often the project got halted because my copy had badly damaged pictures for that one. If any AA owner is willing I will provide the actual volume and issue number and I can definately work on that.
Overcoats was another suggestion that I discarded because of that enormous overcoat post that Alden started and already has much more to it.
You seem to be suggesting that you have a lot of partially completed material; you mention the hats article and others. Why not put these things up on a wiki with a just a few pages, so that we can have a bug place to share pictures and do joint editing? If you have half-done work or odds and ends of pictures but do not have the time to work them into the finished article, then the next best thing would be to put it up somewhere (or send it to someone who can).
I have enjoyed what you have written so much that I would be glad to see whatever you have on, say, hats, especially as I now wear hats much more frequently.
I have enjoyed what you have written so much that I would be glad to see whatever you have on, say, hats, especially as I now wear hats much more frequently.
Dear Mr. Etutee,
This is my first post to the London Lounge, despite the fact that I've been here for several months. I have refrained from posting before because I felt that I did not possess sufficient knowledge of the matter at hand to provide any value to the discussions here.
To amend that lack of knowledge, I have been reading and re-reading your posts, trying not to memorise but to understand the underlying concepts behind your extensive instruction and trying to apply those concepts to my own choices and preferences. In that regard, your articles have been invaluable to me and my sartorial education. I humbly offer my admiration to you and your work.
Regarding your request for constructive criticism, it may be sometimes be difficult to know the order in which the articles should be read.
When Mr. Alden proposed the Corrigenda thread, I was hopeful that a more structured form of your writings would be set down as THE sartorial primer for the London Lounge, but I was too shy to suggest it at the time. Perhaps it is time we set down the LL curriculum and developed the content.
In any case, thank you very, very much.
Best regards,
Cobalt
This is my first post to the London Lounge, despite the fact that I've been here for several months. I have refrained from posting before because I felt that I did not possess sufficient knowledge of the matter at hand to provide any value to the discussions here.
To amend that lack of knowledge, I have been reading and re-reading your posts, trying not to memorise but to understand the underlying concepts behind your extensive instruction and trying to apply those concepts to my own choices and preferences. In that regard, your articles have been invaluable to me and my sartorial education. I humbly offer my admiration to you and your work.
Regarding your request for constructive criticism, it may be sometimes be difficult to know the order in which the articles should be read.
When Mr. Alden proposed the Corrigenda thread, I was hopeful that a more structured form of your writings would be set down as THE sartorial primer for the London Lounge, but I was too shy to suggest it at the time. Perhaps it is time we set down the LL curriculum and developed the content.
In any case, thank you very, very much.
Best regards,
Cobalt
Good comment! I have addressed this a while back but since it may have gotten lost within so much text and all that was written, I will explain again.Cobalt wrote:
Regarding your request for constructive criticism, it may be sometimes be difficult to know the order in which the articles should be read.
All AA / Esky series follow the Vol & NO format. Moreover there are labeled by the month in which they appeared such as (May 05') (Oct 05') (Jan 07') etc...
So the first one is
1: Vol. 1 No. 1
2: Vol. 1 No. 2
3: Vol. 1 No. 3
4: Vol. 1 No. 4
5: Vol. 1 No. 5
6: Vol. 1 No. 6
7: Vol. 1 No. 7
8: Vol. 1 No. 8
9: Vol. 2 No. 1
10: Vol. 2 No. 2
11: Vol. 2 No. 3
12: Vol. 2 No. 4
13: Vol. 2 No. 5
14: Vol. 2 No. 6
15: Vol. 3 No. 1
16 Vol. 3 No. 2
I do agree that it can be confusing with the numbering system I have used so I am willing to change the titles to simple Part 1, 2, 3... and so on
If you follow the series in this order everything will be chronological and will make much more sense. You will be able to understand references from older parts and follow cross reading.
thanks
etutee
No, no! The titles are themselves useful and make for easy reference. Just having volume and number appear in the heading together with the descriptive title should be enough.Etutee wrote:. . . . I do agree that it can be confusing with the numbering system I have used so I am willing to change the titles to simple Part 1, 2, 3... and so on . . . .
And, Etutee, let me add my voice of thanks to the chorus. I doubt that I'd ever have significant access to AA without your enjoyable and informative commentary. I'm grateful for the opportunities to read what you've written and would be much distressed were you to abandon the series. After all, you still must cover shoes and hats!
Last edited by RWS on Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I would also be interested in an article about hats!
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