Black Tie waistcoats

[NCW]

I have been looking for a nice waistcoat for black tie, since I find cummerbunds rather inelegant on those of more slender build. As I understand it, the options are either black or white marcella (though the latter is rather dated). The waistcoat must be of the low-cut style, not like a day time waistcoat. However, I have seen different cuts in black, including a V-shaped front, and a U-shaped one. Can anyone say what period these come from, and with which styles they go best?

[pvpatty]

I too have been pondering this question recently, and wondering whether I will need to go bespoke to get a waistcoat like that on the gentleman on the right in this image: http://bp2.blogger.com/_Wbd-uMYmb_4/R7G ... of+red.gif

[Scot]

Budd has one or two styles of RTW waistcoats for evening wear, I bought one recently!

I have seen them also in other shops in the Burlington and Piccadilly arcades - unable to provide names I'm afraid but they are pretty obvious (if you are standing outside!)

[Guille]

I believe u-shaped low-cut waistcoats are better suited for dinner jackets with shawl lapels, but I'm not sure if this is an agreed statement or my personal taste. Also, you can choose between single or double breasted waistcoats, and in the latter you can choose between straight or V-shaped buttoning. I think the u-shaped waistcoats where the original, as most of the illustrations dating from the 19th century or pree-WWI (belle epoque) that I have seen (many of which you can find in this forum, just by searching) featured it. The v-shaped waistcoats are also depicted, but often without lapels and I have seen many non-low-cut waistcoats from the time, normally white (also worn with white tie). Another stylish issue on which to choose is the shape of the waistcoat's lapels: they are always shawl lapels I believe for evening wear waistcoats, but they can be square-ended or rounded. I hope this helps.

[NCW]

I found this picture (Oliver Brown) of what I was thinking of in black waistcoats:



It seem that since black tie was so informal at the time, pretty much any combination of cuts and colours was acceptable in the inter-war period, so I suppose I cannot be too far wrong whatever I end up going for. Is black tie still this uncodified?

Similarly for shirts, with a more formal double breasted waistcoat, or white marcella, could you wear a high collar, stiff front, and single cuffs, or are those always the preserve of white tie? (I have tried to find details on these fora, but there seems to be too much variation to pin down anything precisely.)

[Steven]

I had to have one made a couple of years ago after many attempts to buy one off the shelf. I took my Dinner Suit to my Tailor to match the fabric and I also took a picture from the Television show Jeeves & Wooster. I went for the U front. They seem to wear them all of the time in that era. I am very pleased with it and it seems to be very rarely worn these days. Hope this helps.

[Guille]

It seem that since black tie was so informal at the time, pretty much any combination of cuts and colours was acceptable in the inter-war period, so I suppose I cannot be too far wrong whatever I end up going for. Is black tie still this uncodified?

Similarly for shirts, with a more formal double breasted waistcoat, or white marcella, could you wear a high collar, stiff front, and single cuffs, or are those always the preserve of white tie? (I have tried to find details on these fora, but there seems to be too much variation to pin down anything precisely.)

Black tie was considered semi-formal wear in the interwar period. There were many different combinations developed during that era, often called the golden era of black tie - as white tie was fading away and suits were considered daywear. I don't agree that 'any combination was acceptable', for rules were still strictly observed and all these combinations were slowly developed and becoming mainstream with the pioneering men of the time, on of the most influential (if not the most) was the Prince of Wales. But if what you mean is practically any combination within formality, then yes I agree. Is black tie still this uncodified? Do you really believe that the trend in modernity has been towards codification and formality in clothing? Black tie was subsequently uncodified as decades went through, reaching its status now where a black suit with a white shirt and black necktie are accepted as black tie. Of course there are still places and occasions when/where proper black tie is still observed, and yet in those most men commit stylish errors (even presidents of countries rent their black tie nowadays).

A great place to learn about the history and development (different shirt fronts, waistcoat styles, jacket styles, lapels, colours, bowties....) of black tie is this webpage: http://www.blacktieguide.com/. If you go here: http://www.blacktieguide.com/Basics/1_Attire.htm you will see all the possible variations within black tie, and as it is explained there, you do not have to go with the most formal or least formal, you can mix former and less former variants: you can wear a high collar stiff fronted shirt with a white marcella waistcoat (the fact that it is double breasted doesn't make it more formal) or with a black waistcoat or even a cummerbund, or you can wear a shirt with high collar but pleated front, etc. The level of formality depending on the formality of the occasion (one of the reasons why black tie has so many variants is that back then it was worn to many events of varying formality, from a dinner at home to a state ceremony, including parties and business). I hope this helped to clear things up.

[Luca]

The Piccadilly Arcade has several suppliers with both RTW and custom-fit. I bought a rather resplendent / dandyish silk royal blue (embroidered with gold stars) for my wedding which I've worn on several occasions since. Essentially, you'll have to keep the rest of the outfit very strictly conventional.

[NCW]

But if what you mean is practically any combination within formality, then yes I agree. Is black tie still this uncodified? Do you really believe that the trend in modernity has been towards codification and formality in clothing?

Yes, I was meaning that we seem to have pictures from the time of pretty much any combination of cuts and lapels, within reason. I am not really talking about trends, i.e. what most people wear, which is very informal now, but what is correct (at smarter events, there does definitely seem to be less variation than I have seen in sketches from the inter-war time). In an era where men do not 'follow the rules', can we really define the 'rules' by what men wear? Indeed, since there is now so much less adhesion to the 'rules', it could be said that, at least comparatively, 'correct' dressing is becoming more codified.

Black tie was subsequently uncodified as decades went through, reaching its status now where a black suit with a white shirt and black necktie are accepted as black tie. Of course there are still places and occasions when/where proper black tie is still observed, and yet in those most men commit stylish errors (even presidents of countries rent their black tie nowadays).

Shocking; very many of my friends own black tie, and I get the impression that, at the events to which I have been, I am certainly not alone in my disapproval of (for example) notched lapels.

A great place to learn about the history and development (different shirt fronts, waistcoat styles, jacket styles, lapels, colours, bowties....) of black tie is this webpage: http://www.blacktieguide.com/.

I had read that, but there are some options advocated on that site which would be a distincly faux pas in England, so I was just checking what the Loungers' opinion was.

Thanks for the good comments.

[Guille]

In the sense that in proper black tie ocassions little creativity exists, then I agree it is becoming more codified. It is quite standard to wear a turned down collar, and wearing a wing collar with black tie nowadays is quite a distincting move, which might even make you loose some points simply because everyone else in the event is wearing one turned down. The same with pleated shirts, they have become the standard for black tie, and whereas back then both stiff fronts and pleated fronts were seen. Wiastcoats with black tie have also very much dissapeared, most people wearing cummerbunds. Opera pumps are also hardly ever seen.

Of course black tie is still worn and owned in some circles - I don't mean to say it isn't, just that in many ocassions considered traditional where black tie is worn, one can observe failures that wouldn't be seen 70 years ago.

[RWS]

. . . . I was just checking what the Loungers' opinion was. . . .

I don't wear a waistcoat with black tie (preferring to wrap a cummerbund around a waist still somewhat slim when wearing shawl collar, and nothing when wearing a DB dinner coat) but think a black, shawl-collared one looks better than a white (seldom seen here, in New England, save with evening dress).