Strollers gone - why?

[Sator]

Some random films:

1. "So This is Paris"--Silent film directed by Ernst Lubitsch. Monte Blue played a Parisian physician.

2. "Mr. Deeds Goes to Town"--1930's film directed by Frank Capra. The Vienesse "expert" psychiatrist at the climatic sanity trial wears a cutaway.

3. "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"--1930;s film directed by Frank Capra. Senator Smith wears a cutaway to a daytime party.

4. "The Maltese Falcon"--1940's film directed by John Huston. Sidney Greenstreet wears a cutaway.

5. "The Lavender Hill Mob"--1950's film. Alex Guiness, a minor clerk in the Bank of England, wears a stroller and bowler as does the executives in the Bank.

6. "April in Paris"--1950's film. Ray Bolger is an American diplomat, and he and his boss, Paul Harvey, wear striped trouser.

7. "A Woman of Paris"--Silent film directed by Charles Chaplin. Adolphe Menjou wears formal day clothes.

I stumbled across old episodes of the old television series, Bewitched, in which Samantha's warlock relatives drop in unexpectedly in morning dress (with the 'cutaway coat' as one says in America).

[Sator]

Sator, how do you like the DB waistcoat/ DB jacket combination? Does it wear very warm? I like the look although I've been doing SB vests with my DB's.

I can't say I find it that much warmer than an SB waistcoat.

[Costi]

I should think the fact itself of wearing a waistcoat adds an extra layer that keeps warm; the SB/DB coat/waistcoat variation shouldn't change things much in this respect.
However, DB vests have lapels AND a crossover; so does a DB coat/jacket. All these layers (up to 12, if you count lining, canvassing and face for each garment) coincide more or less in the same area on the chest and may create an undesired bulging effect. A SB coat/jacket has no lapel overlap even when buttoned up. Besides, when the SB coat is unbuttoned, the DB waistcoat's cut has a chance to be seen.
SB waistcoats don't necessarily have lapels, and I think it is the simple variety that is best worn with DB jackets/coats.

[storeynicholas]

I'd second this - although there is the option of white tabs or slips with a plain single-breasted waistcoat (discussed in another stream realting to Wooster's w/cs).
NJS

[Sator]

In Spain, strollers never actually reached to exist, or at least never became common enough to notice it: when formal, morning coats were worn, and if the occasion wasn't formal, the men would simply wear suits. But in Europe and the US the stroller did have its popularity, specially during the interbellum, and that is why I wonder, how is it that morning coats are worn more often (at least in Europe, because some of you in the US say that strollers are common for weddings, etc).

I have been thinking about this statement, and I cannot help but think that it was exceedingly likely that semi-formal daytime dress did exist in Spain. It is probably just that there was no Spanish word that was the equivalent of the word "stroller". The reason I say that is that there is no British English equivalent either! The term "stroller" is strictly American English. In British English the word sits awkwardly because it usually means a baby's pram. Likewise, I am unaware of a German equivalent either. In Italian it is called a "demi-tight".

Yet the lack of a specific word for the look didn't detract gentlemen from dressing that way.

Churchill:



Thomas Mann:



I admit I may be being a bit presumptuous but in early 20th century Europe, the latest men's fashions from London were universally adapted around the world. I cannot see any reason - especially in socio-political terms - why Spain would have been exempt.

[Guille]

I have been thinking about this statement, and I cannot help but think that it was exceedingly likely that semi-formal daytime dress did exist in Spain. It is probably just that there was no Spanish word that was the equivalent of the word "stroller". The reason I say that is that there is no British English equivalent either! The term "stroller" is strictly American English. In British English the word sits awkwardly because it usually means a baby's pram. Likewise, I am unaware of a German equivalent either. In Italian it is called a "demi-tight".

Yet the lack of a specific word for the look didn't detract gentlemen from dressing that way.

I admit I may be being a bit presumptuous but in early 20th century Europe, the latest men's fashions from London were universally adapted around the world. I cannot see any reason - especially in socio-political terms - why Spain would have been exempt.

Hi Sator. I don't deny the possibility that semi-formal day gentlemen's dress may have existed. I just think it was extremely uncommon, but if you can prove otherwise I wouldn't mind, in fact I would be pleased to know that fellow Spaniards once adopted such an elegant dress. The thing is, finding Spanish people wearing it in photographs is extremely difficult. I have searched Spanish people from late 19th and first half of 20th century. I have searched writers from the generation of '98, from the generation of '27, and others. I have looked up painters, politicians, and some businessmen. If you want to do it, do so, please, and if you find one wearing a stroller I will be very pleased. I just never find it.

I must say that it is hard to tell in the black and white photographs if a trouser is striped in black and grey or is only part of a suit. I must also admit that if you look back in the 19th century it is more probable that you find men wearing something similar to the stroller, as in some of those illustrations you have given of old versions of morning coats, etz. However the modern equivalent (20s&30s) didn't exist. I will try to explain now, having thought more about, why this is.

Spain is NOT a main (or chief, or central, or whatever you want to call it) European country. It is there, somewhat in-between the mini G4 (UK, France, Germany and Italy) but not included in it, and the somehow the second line in the front of Europe, where you have Sweden, Russia, Poland, Norway... And there are other lines behind, of course. However, the thing is that Spain, similar to those countries just listed, didn't participate in the pioneering line when Europe entered the 19th century. Spain wasted the 19th century with continuous political changes, and the century was only one more in the decadence of Spain, which lasted 1600 to 1960s. The century in which Spain should have recovered and overcome its problems in order to be in the frontline of the 20th century, it didn’t. So when Spain entered the 1900s there were still many things in the country that date as back as the middle ages, just as in Russia. But the Russians had the revolution, the coming to power of the Bolsheviks, and eventually Stalin and communism. In the case of the Scandinavians, they were different, because they weren’t the frontline not because they were behind, but because they were in front of it, and had overcome the will to expand and becoming a power, already a century ago Sweden was the socially most advanced country in the world (and a great film by Ingmar Bergman, if not his best, Fanny and Alexander, shows this very well, plus, there is a good selection of formalwear in the film including frock coats). Poland, oh well… Poor Poland. I always wonder how it must be to be a student of Polish history: “today we are going to look at the seventeenth German conquest of Poland”, the next day “well, soon the Germans would be expelled, by the Russians, who stayed here in their fourteenth occupation of Poland”, the next day “Finally, the two countries reached their twenty-fourth German-Russian agreement, divining Poland between them once again”. And that’s a week in a Polish history class. So, Poland was also conquered a few times in the time we are dealing. But let’s stop here and go to the point.

Spain didn’t fight the first world war. It wasn’t up to it, it wasn’t in the same current as the main European nations. In the 20s, we had the dictatorship of Miguel Primo de Rivera (not to confuse with Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, his son, and founder of the Spanish equivalent to German Nazis and Italian Fascists, La Falange (and not Franco, who has frequently been made equivalent to the leaders of those, but had nothing to do with them, for Hitler and Mussolini were politicians, and Franco a military, therefore the Spanish equivalent of those would actually be Jose Antonio, even if he never came to power, as was the case of many other fascist leaders such as Britain’s Oswald Mosley)). Then 1930-36, we had the second republic. And then 36-39 we had the civil war. And then Franco’s dictatorship. What I’m saying with this is that it is possible, you may disagree of course, but I think that it is possible and probable that during this period Spain did not follow the “fashion” from Britain, at least from very near, because although we did have white tie, morning dress and black tie, they were formalwear before the Great War, whereas the examples of something similar to the stroller worn before are always not defined, not really formalwear, but some informal, and sometimes country wear. So, as the stroller as semi-formal morning dress was really born in the 20s, Spain was already quite closed, and occupied with its problems and crises.

I think that the reason that so many countries don’t have a word for it (do the French have one? I believe not) is that it was developed from previously existing and named dresses. They got the jacket from the lounge suit (or sack suit), the striped trousers from morning dress, the accessories, and voila! There was the stroller. But still, in UK you call it semi-formal daywear, in Germany they call it the stresseman (from the politician, I know, but still it’s a name), and I’m sure the French have something. In Spain you don’t. You don’t call it the ‘Primo de Rivera’ (that is hilarious by the way, if you know Spanish); nor semiformal daywear in Spanish, as it doesn’t really translate properly.

EDIT: what I mean by saying that it doesn't translate probably is hard to explain. The words don't fit together, semi, formal, and then daywear. We don't call the morning dress, we simiply call it chaqué, and formal daywear, "ir de chaqué" (going with morning dress). It is simply this: if you go to a British tailor and you tell him you want a semi-formal daywear, he will understand; if you go to a Spanish tailor and tell him you want semi-formal daywear in spanish, he will not understand, and even after explaining, he will not know what it is that you are talking about.

[Sator]

Obviously you know your Spanish history far better than I ever will. Perhaps my impressions of Spain are too strongly coloured by my recent first visit there, for it is now an increasingly vibrant European nation. I tend to think of the Spain of Picasso, and Miro. Also the Spanish Civil War has always struck me as a very European event. Of course, the Spanish Empire was once a major player on the European stage. But maybe you are right in saying that Spain had fallen behind somewhat compared to the rest of Europe in the early 20th century so that its dress retained a strongly 'regional' character, whereas the rest of Europe had cast aside regional folk costume in favour of a more international style.

[RWS]

Sator, I'm an American, not a Spaniard; but I do have a few, if distant, Spanish cousins. In looking at old twentieth-century photographs of those cousins and their immediate forebears, though the expected allotment of white tie does appear (even the rare black tie), what, as an American, really strikes me is the elegance of country clothing -- shooting suits, riding outfits, and the like. I don't know who designed and tailored those clothes, but they certainly conjure an image of an amazing, very pleasing, confluence of informality and grace.

Perhaps that gracefulness in casual settings, rather than development of formal dress (ironically, remembering that expenditures on luxuries helped gut Spain's empire and that formal reserve has long, by northwestern Europeans at least, been considered a hallmark of the Castillian), is most instructive for us Loungers today.

[couch]

I yield to Guille in knowledge of Spanish history, but RWS's comments remind me to suggest that Guille's explanation refers only to a specific form of dress rather than to the general Spanish level of sophistication or elegance in clothing.

My impression is that in its heyday, the principal social role of the stroller was in conducting business, whether private commerce or public service. The turbulent history Guille recounts resulted in, among other things, a smaller 'haute bourgeoisie' than in England; Spain's landed aristocracy and gentry retained their importance and influence much later into the century than did England's after the Great War. (It was said as late as the 1970s that the Duchess of Alba could walk from the northern coast of Spain to the southern coast without ever leaving her own land). Spanish grandees had for at least a century known and often admired English dress (remember Wellington's role in restoring the Bourbons and Spanish independence from France), alongside such domestic forms as the capa española and Andalucian riding clothes--witness RWS's photographs. I would hypothesize that it was a greater inclination to formality on public occasions among the privileged classes (lending grace even to "informal" activities; a "town and country" style) coupled with a smaller professional/business class that made the "semi-" part of "semi-formal daywear" less relevant in Iberia. Spain is such a diverse country that it's hard to generalize, but in my experience there over thirty years, I've seen at least as much dignity and elegance of presentation among people of all stations as in other European countries.

I suspect that had the educational and economic advances achieved in the past 20 years both in Spain and Ireland occurred during the period of the stroller's vogue, Spain would have been in the forefront of stroller-wearing nations. After all, the country's flagship department store, founded in 1934 and named in 1940, is called El Corte Inglés (The English Cut). It grew from a tailor shop on Madrid's calle Preciados founded in 1890.

- Couch

[Guille]

Obviously you know your Spanish history far better than I ever will. Perhaps my impressions of Spain are too strongly coloured by my recent first visit there, for it is now an increasingly vibrant European nation. I tend to think of the Spain of Picasso, and Miro. Also the Spanish Civil War has always struck me as a very European event. Of course, the Spanish Empire was once a major player on the European stage. But maybe you are right in saying that Spain had fallen behind somewhat compared to the rest of Europe in the early 20th century so that its dress retained a strongly 'regional' character, whereas the rest of Europe had cast aside regional folk costume in favour of a more international style.

Don’t take me wrong. Spain is a European country, that is for sure. But looked from outside, specially from so far as Australia, impedes you to see some truths (but then again you face one great philosophical debate, weather it is better to see with perspective or with experience, whether Israelis and Palestinians have a better view of the conflict as they live in it, or we do, being outside of it; in Spain we summarize this dilemma with two proverbs; “one cannot see the forest from the top of the hill, because the trees hide it” and “[on bullfighting] once can only see what is happening from the bullring”), that Spain was more like Turkey than like Germany for 1600-1900, as both were empires immersed in a slow decadence, closing their societies with strong religiousness, and getting too accustomed with customs. Again, with the civil war, it was a European event (in fact, even people from out of Europe came here, such as American volunteers including the great writer Ernest Hemingway, who then wrote his experiences in For Whom The Bell Tolls, a novel which I enthusiastically recommend), but it then again left Spain so devastated after it that when the time came for another major European war, Spain missed it again. Not that that was bad: thanks god Spain didn’t participate in the war (although in fact Franco did send his Blue Division to help Hitler in Russia), although in fact it turned out bad for Spain because we didn’t receive a single $ of the Marshall plan, due to two reasons: Franco initially was on the Axis side and Spain didn’t really participate in the war. This left Spain quite bad, but eventually Franco led the powers to the technocrats (most of them belonging to the Opus Dei), who managed to stop with a decadence that had lasted for almost four centuries. Since the 60s, and specially since the 80s, Spain has improved significantly in every aspect.

Sator, I'm an American, not a Spaniard; but I do have a few, if distant, Spanish cousins. In looking at old twentieth-century photographs of those cousins and their immediate forebears, though the expected allotment of white tie does appear (even the rare black tie), what, as an American, really strikes me is the elegance of country clothing -- shooting suits, riding outfits, and the like. I don't know who designed and tailored those clothes, but they certainly conjure an image of an amazing, very pleasing, confluence of informality and grace.

Perhaps that gracefulness in casual settings, rather than development of formal dress (ironically, remembering that expenditures on luxuries helped gut Spain's empire and that formal reserve has long, by northwestern Europeans at least, been considered a hallmark of the Castillian), is most instructive for us Loungers today.

This is very interesting. First, it is precisely what I have commented on since I came to the LL, that Spaniard’s informality in dress (due to several factors, such as weather, mentality…), did leave us a bit away from formalwear but put us into a huge use of informal wear. I’m sure that the country clothing you saw is great, as has been all the country clothing I’ve seen from past members of my family.

Again about our empire… Let me say just that whiles it is true that we got all the gold (and other commodities and goods) we could, Spain never benefited from it: we immediately spend it on Turkish spices, silk from the Province of Como, and many other goods from other countries. Therefore, all our money went to the rest of Europe, and, as you can read, the economy of places like Holand, Venice, Florence (all merchant regions) were more benefited than the Spanish, which were living in bad conditions even for the times. Plus, king Philip II tried to apply his ultra catholocism to the whole nation, and something as huge and important to Europe’s history as the renaissance didn’t reach to happen in Spain. And by the way, he is one of the five best kings in Spain’s history. This is why I wonder sometimes, how a country in which kings have nearly always been horrible keep its monarchy, like Spain, and countries with many great kings even for the people such as Germany, have lost it. However I like the current king and the way he has adapted the monarchy to modernity, specially when comparing it to the horrible image of the British, Monegasque, or other current monarchies. But I agree, Spain gives many lessons when dealing with casual dress, such as the Teba, already commented previously in the forum.

I yield to Guille in knowledge of Spanish history, but RWS's comments remind me to suggest that Guille's explanation refers only to a specific form of dress rather than to the general Spanish level of sophistication or elegance in clothing.

My impression is that in its heyday, the principal social role of the stroller was in conducting business, whether private commerce or public service. The turbulent history Guille recounts resulted in, among other things, a smaller 'haute bourgeoisie' than in England; Spain's landed aristocracy and gentry retained their importance and influence much later into the century than did England's after the Great War. (It was said as late as the 1970s that the Duchess of Alba could walk from the northern coast of Spain to the southern coast without ever leaving her own land). Spanish grandees had for at least a century known and often admired English dress (remember Wellington's role in restoring the Bourbons and Spanish independence from France), alongside such domestic forms as the capa española and Andalucian riding clothes--witness RWS's photographs. I would hypothesize that it was a greater inclination to formality on public occasions among the privileged classes (lending grace even to "informal" activities; a "town and country" style) coupled with a smaller professional/business class that made the "semi-" part of "semi-formal daywear" less relevant in Iberia. Spain is such a diverse country that it's hard to generalize, but in my experience there over thirty years, I've seen at least as much dignity and elegance of presentation among people of all stations as in other European countries.

I suspect that had the educational and economic advances achieved in the past 20 years both in Spain and Ireland occurred during the period of the stroller's vogue, Spain would have been in the forefront of stroller-wearing nations. After all, the country's flagship department store, founded in 1934 and named in 1940, is called El Corte Inglés (The English Cut). It grew from a tailor shop on Madrid's calle Preciados founded in 1890.

- Couch

I agree completely with you. Our bourgeoisie was developed very late, and not to such an extend as in Britain and France. Spanish aristocrats had admired English dress for in fact a century before Wellington’s help of the bourbons, in another union between Britain and Spain against France, that time against Louise XIV, although that time it was the Frenchman who one, and the Bourbons becoming the royal family in Spain, however the aristocrats turned their backs to the monarchs for at least a century, and to frenchness in general, looking at Britain instead, until there was a good Bourbons king—the only good one, apart from the current one—Charles III. I agree with your explanation, it is in fact what I said in the starting post, that they wore morning coats and full formal daywear when formal, and if not, it was informal. There wasn’t the society, and therefore there wasn’t the occasion, to wear semi-formal daywear. The English Cut has, in fact a monopoly still, and now is a huge copany, but its brand name is one of the best that Spanish companies have.

Thank you all for your interest and replies.

[couch]

You make excellent points about the performance of monarchs. Having lived in Madrid through 1977-78 and visited often after, I've always thought that Juan Carlos deserved a Nobel Peace Prize (I know they don't give them for work within a nation, but still). While the successful transition from franquismo to a stable and civil (if fractious) government involved many people of good will, the success was never a foregone conclusion--and the king used his position about as well as anyone dared to hope in very dangerous times.

As one small example that struck literally close to home, the recently retired commandant of marines was gunned down by ETA on the sidewalk one evening a few doors from my apartment, in an attempt to undermine support for the newly written constitution in the upcoming referendum. I was stuck in a cab in a traffic jam for an hour only blocks away, and when I was finally able to get to my door the street crews were still washing the blood off the sidewalk.

Ironically, ETA wanted to derail the constitution because it gave too much autonomy to the regions, and they feared it would weaken support for their separatist aims.

- Couch

[Guille]

You make excellent points about the performance of monarchs.

Thank you.

Having lived in Madrid through 1977-78 and visited often after, I've always thought that Juan Carlos deserved a Nobel Peace Prize (I know they don't give them for work within a nation, but still). While the successful transition from franquismo to a stable and civil (if fractious) government involved many people of good will, the success was never a foregone conclusion--and the king used his position about as well as anyone dared to hope in very dangerous times.

I agree, the king is a great man and does a great job in his role. Still today, as you will know.

Ironically, ETA wanted to derail the constitution because it gave too much autonomy to the regions, and they feared it would weaken support for their separatist aims.

That is not a surprise to me. Anyone with a bit of mind can realise that if the slightly nationalistic people (those who are proud of their own nature within Spain) are given what they want then ETA and extremists loose their power. So they do as much as they can to avoid conciliation between separatists and the central government, so that the movement of separatism grows bigger.

[rodes]

I continue to admire this garmet as most smart and practical. When worn in double breasted form with checked trousers it even looks modern. I wear mine as often as the occasion permits and it is always met with favorable response. Still, I never see any others even in genteel settings. Is there any hope?

[Costi]

No, but hopeless is sublime
I like wearing mine, too and it looks pretty smart!

[Concordia]

A few other examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhe8gZtRAlA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo--vvnKgQ4