"Seen, quite seen, thank you very much"

[RWS]

This, for me, has been the real "find" in this thread. I've been vacillating on single-breasted, peak-lapelled coats, and I definitely don't like 2B SBs, but this image shows me that both can be carried off well.

[sartorius]

Here is another example of a single breasted peak. Not the best picture, but I think it illustrates well the lower positioning of the lapels as compared with the suit at the top of this thread.

[img][img]http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8493 ... 500lu6.jpg[/img]
[/img]

[Cantabrigian]

Like others, I'm a fan of some of the accessories but not with that particular suit. I do however like that suit.

I don't understand why peak lapels are considered more formal. They're definitely less common than notch lapels on business suits today (and I believe the same was true historically as well) and when they are seen it's almost always on a fashion forwardy suit or else on the commission of a bespoke habitue who wants 'something a little different.'

In either case, I think the feature inevitably draws some attention to itself. Since I've always considered appropriateness to be generally proportional to the extent to which something won't draw the attention of the casual observer, I've always considered peak lapels to be less dressy.

So if I every got a suit with them, it would have to be a decidedly casual suit in either a dark worsted for social activities at night or else in an interesting pattern to wear during the day and not look like I'm going to work. That cloth may be a little too much for me but I think it looks good there - though I'd probably wear a shirt and tie more along the lines of what gefinzi suggested.

Maybe I'll grow out of this but I really dislike peak lapels with a lower notch and a lot of belly when not on a tuxedo. If I ever attempted the look (and I doubt I will) I'd error on the side of looking like a fashionista rather than an actor in a period piece.

[HappyStroller]

Less dressy ... how appropriate. (sorry, Sir, I couldn't help making this remark).8>)

...<snipped>...
Since I've always considered appropriateness to be generally proportional to the extent to which something won't draw the attention of the casual observer, I've always considered peak lapels to be less dressy.
...<snipped>...

[alden]

I don't understand why peak lapels are considered more formal.

SB peak lapels are evening wear, white and black tie. This is as formal as you can get. When transferred to daywear lounge suits, the style cannot but recall the formal heritage. The SB peak can look very well or very dreadful, and most I have ever seen fall into the latter category. It takes a masterful hand to get the coat right, and a wonderful cut of lapel. Most tailors do not have it.

I'd error on the side of looking like a fashionista rather than an actor in a period piece.

I think you raise a good point and its one I plan on addressing in another article, the idea of the “actor in a period piece” look. Part of the confusion lies in the fact that most of us cannot draw so we tend to use photos to illustrate the detail of style we wish to achieve in our dress. The immediate and seemingly irreversible misunderstanding follows, the one that equates pictorial and graphic display for nostalgic reverie. The idea is not to return to the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. The idea is to display styles that can be made and worn today; if they are truly elegant and timeless, they are also imminently modern. We speak a different language today than we did decades ago, but we employ the same grammar.



The Best of Both coat above serves as an excellent example and its apparition is timely. The bespeaker is quite a few decades younger than yours truly. He is very fit, his clothes are finely tailored and he wears them well. Then thing is that he doesn’t like to wear neckties. He prefers sweaters and shirts with a polo or roll collar. And he wears them under his very classic suits. The young gentleman in question works in a creative environment and his style is classical and very modern at the same time. He looks chic.



A moment about cloth, if we extrapolated the above DB coat in the mind’s eye to an SB peak, it would possess all the qualities of understatement many of us admire; it provides a perfect canvas for the creative and elegant dresser to improvise. It is neither garish nor exaggerated, and this is a characteristic that permits its use today, tomorrow and in a century from now.

The loud clear cut windowpane cloth displayed in the thread is very difficult to temper though there are those who will try, some will succeed others will fail. The failures will greatly outnumber, as in all things, those few successes. My suggestion is to select cloth that assures a success or by remaining neutral, provides a canvas for painting an individual style. This is especially true for those young men who are starting out in bespoke and may not have the leisure to err.

[Cantabrigian]

SB peak lapels are evening wear, white and black tie. This is as formal as you can get. When transferred to daywear lounge suits, the style cannot but recall the formal heritage. The SB peak can look very well or very dreadful, and most I have ever seen fall into the latter category. It takes a masterful hand to get the coat right, and a wonderful cut of lapel. Most tailors do not have it.

I suppose that for me the difficulty is that I think of dinner jacket details as being particular to that specific use. I wouldn't consider covered buttons or grosgrain lapels to be more formal when used on a lounge suit (and unfortunately, I've seen both and not as Halloween costumes).

I suppose it's largely an academic question for me since I - like you it appears - dislike the look in many of the examples I've seen.

I think you raise a good point and its one I plan on addressing in another article, the idea of the “actor in a period piece” look. Part of the confusion lies in the fact that most of us cannot draw so we tend to use photos to illustrate the detail of style we wish to achieve in our dress. The immediate and seemingly irreversible misunderstanding follows, the one that equates pictorial and graphic display for nostalgic reverie. The idea is not to return to the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. The idea is to display styles that can be made and worn today; if they are truly elegant and timeless, they are also imminently modern. We speak a different language today than we did decades ago, but we employ the same grammar.

I completely agree. I often draw stylistic inspiration from many of the older photos posted here. My point was entirely limited to wide peaked lapels and a lot of belly. I don't think that they can look modern or timeless on a lounge suit especially when accompanied by a low gorge but that may be purely my own personal quirk.

I think that the vast majority of the photos we see on LL can be either copied directly or very slightly modified and look perfectly modern.

[alden]

My point was entirely limited to wide peaked lapels and a lot of belly. I don't think that they can look modern or timeless on a lounge suit especially when accompanied by a low gorge but that may be purely my own personal quirk.

In all fairness to Mr. Niven and his tailor, the coat is flapping open. Pictures are sometimes difficult. The lapel on our right hand side is closed and does not seem as wide or as bellied as the one on the left that is flapping. The gorge is low but not shockingly low.

I don't think Niven's lapels resemble the lapels shown below on the vintage Neapolitan dinner suit that Matt posted awhile back. You might be thinking of these kinds of lapels and I would agree with you entirely.

[angelo]

Michael,
I have known that the guy of the first picture of Your post is Luca Rubinacci , Mariano's son ; this explains a lot of thinghs about his checked suit and in general about his whole outfit. Indeed Luca ,as young man, is trying to combine the neapolitan tailoring tradition with innovation having as aim (this is an hypothesis) the creation of a new and personal fashion line displaying an appealing look for young people.This line should very likely be put , as previously underlined also by You, on the market as RWT. For this purpose he is adding exuberant accessories (tie, belt ,socks) to an already luxuriant SB suit , where peak lapels represent one of the main feature. In Italy , and I believe also in other countries, there is now a great return of SB peak lapels lounge suits that attire many young professional, who for the vaste majority are completely devoid of any good taste and bespoke tailoring culture. My opinion is that Luca has foreseen the great market potentiality of this kind of customers and for this reason is moving along paths that are diverging from the sober tradition of his family Premise.

Angelo

Alden wrote:

The present example is clearly targeted at being “fashionable” and destined for a RTW application. The pervasive imbalances described above have been inserted with premeditation to render a “ new”, dynamic and youthful fashion image. Luckily it serves by its errors in taste as a model of “seen, quite seen thank you very much” dressing"

[Costi]

Here is a different take at the dark grey / blue windowpane / SB peak lapel combination:



The wooly cloth is a fine herringbone weave of blueish grey (petrol blue?) and dark grey.

The close-range picture and the flash bring out the windowpane more than in real life. The overall effect is more along the lines of this:

[Minh]

"A discerning eye needs only a hint, and understatement leaves the imagination free to build its own elaborations." -- Russell Page

The English are famous for their love of gardens, and Russell Page was among the greatest of their gardeners. The secret to his landscapes was a classical sense of balance, proportion, and understatement. He knew when to place a plain path beside the fancy trellises, and where to plant a grove of oaks instead of a vast field of lillies.

The word that best describes this aesthetic is "classical." The classical artist, says Lytton Strachey, is guided by "a fine economy, and ignoring everything but what is essential, trusts, by means of the exact propriety of his presentation, to produce the required effect."

Often we try to make an impression by being profuse, by covering one corner of the garden with a dozen kinds of flowers in different colors. But the impression that gives is not of richness and harmony, but of excess and confusion.

It is a lesson relevant to dress. An impression should not be forced but suggested. More is gained by being subtle than by being overwhelming.

[MTM]

This pict of Gary Cooper in relatively low, peak-lapeled suit was recently brought to my attn:



I like the look. What do those more experienced think?

[uppercase]

I received an email from Rubinacci a while ago mentioning this GQ spread on Luca Rubinacci: :



"Dear______

The third generation of Rubinacci is following in the father Mariano Rubinacci footsteps !!

http://men.style.com/gq/fashion/landing?id=content_6231 "

I wonder if Luca's choice of dress, and our reactions to it, may well not reflect generational views.

Remember, Luca is around 25 years old and works in a creative field, representing his family's clothing venture.

One would naturally expect his dress to be individual, quirky and contrarian; a classic, bespoke Rubinacci perhaps but with a strong dose of je nai sais quoi. I would be uncomfortable if Luca dressed like his father.

He is obviously dressed to make a make a bold statement and demand a reaction. But his dress is appropriate for his purposes.

He is a walking advertisement for his venerable, bespoke firm which needs to remain relevant and current, not a relic. His dress, and its seeming inconsistencies and non-tradtional choices, while perhaps a conscious, provocative choice in some respects , also more or less reflects who Luca really is as an individual and his style. Though perhaps not who we may want him to be selling us high-end bespoke clothing from a Neapolitan institution.

Certainly, Luca has cleaned up his act from what he used to wear to work several years ago (see photo below).

{BTW, that's also a SB Peak coat that they made for me in a worsted. And Mariano also wears a SB Peak. Do the sins of the tailor continue to reflect in the treatment of both lapels....?}

But back to our real world as thoughtful dressers and the issues this thread raises...certainly , whether you take Luca's advice when choosing your clothing or his father's advice, you will walk out of Rubinacci wearing two different styles. Which, is up to you and your tastes but it suggests to me that our bespoke clothing choices must be individual to be authentic and relevant; and not unnecessarily proscribed by classical precepts to be meaningful, attractive or tasteful; dressing should not become formlulaic, a boring unform nor predictable, staid nor dated . Even two generations of Rubinacci's can agree to disagree on how bespoke clothing is best worn today.

Again, the Italians trump others in style by turning bespoke clothing rules and expectations on its head and re-stating what is relevant in bespoke today.

{BTW, for those in London now , Rubinacci has some absolutely beautiful old cloth on display in its window as well as a fabulous red, heavily textured car coat.}

As a final aside, the question of how classic bespoke clothing is worn, its statement, it's place and indeed, its entire relevance has increasingly become an issue to me.

This thought arises in particular within the context of recent travels which highlighted to me that most everything that I have had made - from suits and tweed sports coats, is pretty much unwearable: such clothing really does put me at odds with my milieu.

It's just not a corporate/tweed world out there anymore.

And a thick, tweed coat just takes up an awful lot of room in the suitcase as well!

[Cantabrigian]

After reading the various threads about that suit, I wanted to get a closer look at the fabric:



Click for a closeup:


I don't know if it's apparent from my weak photo but it does have a bit of texture to it.

I like the look of the fabric but it feels a little flimsy to me though I'll defer to the knowledge of anyone who has actualyl had it made up.

[drifting]

I think you raise a good point and its one I plan on addressing in another article, the idea of the “actor in a period piece” look. Part of the confusion lies in the fact that most of us cannot draw so we tend to use photos to illustrate the detail of style we wish to achieve in our dress. The immediate and seemingly irreversible misunderstanding follows, the one that equates pictorial and graphic display for nostalgic reverie. The idea is not to return to the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. The idea is to display styles that can be made and worn today; if they are truly elegant and timeless, they are also imminently modern. We speak a different language today than we did decades ago, but we employ the same grammar.

I completely agree. I often draw stylistic inspiration from many of the older photos posted here. My point was entirely limited to wide peaked lapels and a lot of belly. I don't think that they can look modern or timeless on a lounge suit especially when accompanied by a low gorge but that may be purely my own personal quirk.

I think that the vast majority of the photos we see on LL can be either copied directly or very slightly modified and look perfectly modern.

With regard to this aspect of the discussion, this suit of Daniel Craig's came to mind:


Interesting to note that he wore this at Cannes in support of The Golden Compass, which has, I believe, a vaguely Edwardian feel. He also wore a similar dark (black? navy?) 2b peak SB 3 piece to the London premier. Quite a contrast to the gray 3b notch SB 3 piece he wore to many PR events supporting the Bond film.

drifting

[Sator]

With regard to this aspect of the discussion, this suit of Daniel Craig's came to mind:


Interesting to note that he wore this at Cannes in support of The Golden Compass, which has, I believe, a vaguely Edwardian feel.

During the Edwardian era, lounge suits were properly regarded as a form of beach and country resort wear by purists. A lady would pretend not to recognise a gentleman dressed thusly in town, and disdainfully dismiss any man who dared to show up in a "suit of dittos". No man - gentleman or otherwise - would have dared to wear a lounge suit as evening dress. It would have been like wearing board shorts and flip flops.

As for the cut of the lounge suit worn by Craig, even in the years leading up to WWII, that waistcoat would have been considered to be rather daring for showing so much of the shirt (which was regarded as a form of underwear).

An Edwardian single breasted peak lapel lounge coat looks more like this:



Notice that the artist has avoided depicting the figure in an urban setting wearing the despised "suit of dittos" so hated by dress purists of this age. Instead, he wears semi-formal morning dress (stroller in American English). Note too the correct Edwardian accessories such as the pinned cravatte, Oxford boots with fabric uppers, detachable turndown collar, grey or tan gloves, Homburg hat, pocket square and walking stick.

Craig in his "suit of dittos" does not even come close!