A three nations bespoke conversation

[sartorius]

Today the French and Italians are producing RTW that is finished in manner that is inconsistent with the intrinsic value of the garment: a low value for a garment that does not fit.

I wholeheartedly agree. A branch of Kiton has recently opened on Clifford Street in Mayfair, just off SR. Their RTW jackets are priced at a level similar to what you will pay for full bespoke at a top SR house. Perhaps the "finishing" is superior (perhaps the styling also). But I defy anyone (French, Italian or whoever) to argue that the intrinsic quality of the product is equal to SR bespoke. I know from personal experience that the after sales care is non-existent.

My SR tailor is like an old friend. Commission a suit and you are not just buying the finished product. You are getting a cleaning, pressing and adjusting service for life. You can keep your exquisitely finished button holes. I know where I want to invest.

[dopey]

Interesting. I have noticed, or perhaps have thought that I have noticed, that a disproportionate number of suits made on Savile Row today have an odd back bunching issue above the hips. It seems like an epidemic.

Hah!! That sounds like what might happen if someone added some padding above their hip bones after seeing their tailor.

Just a guess, of course. I wouldn't know anything specific about that.

[rjman]

My only experience with France is Charvet and for shirts only, and for my wife at that. The fit is extraordinary and they seem to take fit extremely seriously. The finishing is just good but not spectacular.

I hear they have crooked stichting too...

I would have said that the finishing is better than the fit, or at least that they favor a slightly more relaxed fit than Lanvin bespoke, which was wonderful but not something I can do often. This may be a subject for PM, but what about the finishing is not to your liking?

RJ fran (wearing my last Charvet, picked up Saturday -- twill with stripes)

[iammatt]

My only experience with France is Charvet and for shirts only, and for my wife at that. The fit is extraordinary and they seem to take fit extremely seriously. The finishing is just good but not spectacular.

I hear they have crooked stichting too...

I would have said that the finishing is better than the fit, or at least that they favor a slightly more relaxed fit than Lanvin bespoke, which was wonderful but not something I can do often. This may be a subject for PM, but what about the finishing is not to your liking?

RJ fran (wearing my last Charvet, picked up Saturday -- twill with stripes)

The finishing was perfectly good, there were no problems. It did not have what Alden was describing that you would find in a shirt from an Italian maker, that is little finishing flourishes and handstitched buttonholes that serve little purpose but are fun to look at. My wife has tried some Italian shirtmakers and much prefers Charvet based only on fit. I am a finishing fetishist, myself.

[luk-cha]

Anyone who knows Tony's bespoke work knows that proper fit is a sine qua non.

Based on my own experience, I cannot agree with that statement -- yet. I can only hope that I am in a very small minority. Cleverley's finishing is considerably weaker than Tony's -- but fit wise, they are vastly superior (no comparison really). As Dopey, I am in complete agreement with Alden's choice of fit over finishing and as such Cleverley continues to receive my custom.

i would disagree with you also on that statement, when i had my fitting for bespoke shoes with Tony he stressed on important fit was to him, and how many people assumed that because G&G's bespoke shoes are strong in the style sense, that they will sacrifice on the fit.

[alden]

My only experience with France is Charvet and for shirts only, and for my wife at that. The fit is extraordinary and they seem to take fit extremely seriously. The finishing is just good but not spectacular.

Charvet is a throw back to better times. They go to great lengths to get the fit right. And that holds true for their tailor as well. They are one of the few bespoke operations that will do a muslin forward before cutting the cloth, to insure that the very first garment fits well. I don’t know very many houses that do this anymore. On the other hand, the finish is not what we would see from an Italian shirt maker as you rightly point out.

I do agree that in Italy you see a lot of suits that are obviously bespoke but ill fitting. I am not sure where people are finding them, but they are not very pleasing. Perhaps you could speak to that a bit.

1. There is a lot of RTW and MTM dolled up with large doses of handwork in the finish. They look like bespoke but they cannot fit like bespoke.

2. Italian tailors, as a general rule and with notable exceptions, are not as concerned with fit as are English tailors. They are also not as obsessed with the use of great cloth.

The average Italian bespoke customer changes wardrobe often, follows fashions a bit and really is more concerned about "the look" ie styling. Tailors love to see customers who come back every year to change their wardrobes because the style is no longer current or the inferior cloth has worn out.

[alden]

they favor a slightly more relaxed fit than Lanvin bespoke, which was wonderful but not something I can do often

Marc, at Lanvin, is great but he exaggerates a bit on the skin tight fit. If buttons pop when you breathe, its not a good thing.

[smoothjazzone]

Luk-cha:

I hope upon reflection you will see the logical flaw in your statement. That fit is very important to Tony in no way contradicts my statement that in my experience my shoes from Tony do not fit as well as my shoes from Cleverley.

That many people do think that G&G sacrifices fit for style should atleast put some doubt in your mind that despite their best efforts maybe they are not consistently good in the fit department as some of their direct competition.

Not trying to knock Tony -- but like Concordia, I am less satisfied with the fit of my shoes from Tony as compared to Cleverley. And the only reason that I chose to respond to Alden's statement is that to the best of my knowledge I am not the only person that feels that way -- and in good conscience, I could not -- not respond. And like Concordia, I haven't given up yet either -- and do hope to be able to resolve these issues. As Alden suggested -- a perfect fit + G&G's production values may result in the best bespoke shoes in the business.

Anyone who knows Tony's bespoke work knows that proper fit is a sine qua non.

Based on my own experience, I cannot agree with that statement -- yet. I can only hope that I am in a very small minority. Cleverley's finishing is considerably weaker than Tony's -- but fit wise, they are vastly superior (no comparison really). As Dopey, I am in complete agreement with Alden's choice of fit over finishing and as such Cleverley continues to receive my custom.

i would disagree with you also on that statement, when i had my fitting for bespoke shoes with Tony he stressed on important fit was to him, and how many people assumed that because G&G's bespoke shoes are strong in the style sense, that they will sacrifice on the fit.

[soupcon]

Michael,

Could you please elaborate on why Continental bespoke is seen as being weak on the fit? If you could expand on some examples and particular flaws that are endemic to a certain style, I would begin to understand what I should be looking for to determine a sound fit on Italian bespoke.

You also did not mention Cifonelli as being top cutters.Was that deliberate or just an omission? I have some questions about their jackets that have me puzzled, and perhaps you know the answers.Is it my eye, or do they appear to have a lower than ideal buttoning point? Could this be what has them labelled as a "tubular" cut? Is their house shoulder a spalla insellata or is that a big old pad of wadding in there?Any suits I have seen of theirs may have a higher shoulder pitch,yet it doesn't appear bulky and cumbersome like a RTW Brioni, and their shoulder doesn't seem all that square and rigid.Is this accurate?

Thanks.

[kolecho]

Lukcha,

You should compare the fit of G&G bespoke with other bespoke artisans, after you try them. TG can emphasize fit, but if he can't get it right compared to the competition, then perhaps fit is not TG's strong point.

G&G have eyes set on RTW AFAIK. It seems to me that bespoke is only a stepping stone towards that.

On a related note, fit is the big picture in bespoke. Finishing is the detail. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd prefer to get the big picture right.

[Des Esseintes]

On a related note, fit is the big picture in bespoke. Finishing is the detail. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd prefer to get the big picture right.

Dear kolecho,

while I fully agree with your standpoint, I would also maintain that "fit is the big picture in bespoke" is very much a subjective statement not a universally accepted truth, as the very entertaining and insightful "three nations" thread illustrates. YOu might as well argue that "cloth is the big picture", as it covers close to 100% of the visible surface of your suit, and fit will be overlooked by 95% of the general public anyway. Now, what the experts say may be different, but then you are back in the "three nations" disagreement - do you want to belong to the few in the know or do you want please the crowds?

dE

[couch]

Further to the fit/finish debate, and to the role of national 'schools,' I'd suppose that excellent finishers, like excellent cutters and coatmakers, are a scarce resource, and that firms with access to them no doubt deploy them where they will be most appreciated. I'm persuaded of this by a couple of experiences; it's a part of the education of a bespoke client that I value. At the initial measuring-up and order-taking for my first suit from a certain SR piscina, I mentioned that in addition to a particular approach to silhouette and drape I very much hoped to approach the quality of the beautiful buttonhole stitching on my first SR coat, made in '84. The cutters noted this on the order sheet and said something to the effect of "Ah, then we'll send it to XXXXXXX. She's the best." I think mention may have been made of her country of origin, central European I think. And indeed the completed buttonhole work was all I could hope for, with some subtleties I would never have thought of. But I have seen buttonholes and other finishing from the same firm that was only adequate. So I've learned it pays to make one's appreciation known at the outset.

This leads to a question. I'm hoping to have a suit made before long by the distinguished Philadelphia tailor Joseph Centofanti (now 87) before he hangs up his shears. The man is an artist at sculpting cloth, but all the buttonhole work I've seen from his shop is underwhelming. This will not stop me from working with him, and once I've made known my hope that he will provide the best finishing he can, I'll take what I get. Manton mentioned to me once that he knows someone in the New York area who can do exquisite buttonholes on completed garments, and I'd love for Centofanti's work to have a finish worthy of it. Of course it would be insulting to ask him to leave the buttonholes uncut (even though he himself might wish he had access to better finishers; I don't know). My question is, from a technical standpoint, on a 10-12 oz. sharkskin (Charles Clayton), for example, once buttonholes have been stitched, can the stitching successfully be removed if one wanted to have them re-bound more finely and evenly? Or would the cloth edges be too compromised to properly hold new stitches without cockling or losing the ability to meet squarely, etc?

Contrary to what my question may suggest, I'm not a fanatic about buttonholes; line, fit, and movement are all much more important to me. But fine finishing is one of the pleasures of bespoke, and as we often seek out specialists, I thought I'd canvass your thoughts on the plausibility of such a course.

[Andre Yew]

G&G have eyes set on RTW AFAIK. It seems to me that bespoke is only a stepping stone towards that.

I think it may appear that way at the moment, but if you talk to Tony G., he'll tell you that the RTW business is meant to sustain the bespoke business in the long term so he can do what he really wants to do with the bespoke business. Right now, most of their cash comes the bespoke side, which makes it really difficult to change it. I remember he said this a year or two ago when his RTW line was still unrevealed, and he said the same thing to me again today.

What kind of changes is he thinking about? He mentioned reducing the bespoke business to a shockingly low number of shoes a year --- he presently makes 100 a year, which is already much lower than anyone else --- so he can make the finishing and quality even better.

--Andre

[Gruto]

What is fit and what is silhouette (style)? In theory it might easy to differentiate between them, but I think they mesh together in real life: a well-cut slim silhouette coat has a different fit from a well-cut sack coat. Afterall, both silhouette and fit come from the cutting of garment.

[luk-cha]

SmoothJazzone

i have been trying to reflect on on what you put and agree you are not trying to knock Tony, but in what way are TG fit different to Cleverleys? because the most important aspect of bespoke shoes is the fit - this wouig be the main reason for going down that path.

most people that say G&G sacrifices fit for style i assume are not his clients.

please understand that i am not trying to play down you comments i am just trying to figure out in what way they fit is so vastly different. but i will also state that i have only used G&G so untill i have used others maybe i should be not so quick to judge

[quote="smoothjazzone"]Luk-cha:

I hope upon reflection you will see the logical flaw in your statement. That fit is very important to Tony in no way contradicts my statement that in my experience my shoes from Tony do not fit as well as my shoes from Cleverley.

That many people do think that G&G sacrifices fit for style should atleast put some doubt in your mind that despite their best efforts maybe they are not consistently good in the fit department as some of their direct competition.

Not trying to knock Tony -- but like Concordia, I am less satisfied with the fit of my shoes from Tony as compared to Cleverley. And the only reason that I chose to respond to Alden's statement is that to the best of my knowledge I am not the only person that feels that way -- and in good conscience, I could not -- not respond. And like Concordia, I haven't given up yet either -- and do hope to be able to resolve these issues. As Alden suggested -- a perfect fit + G&G's production values may result in the best bespoke shoes in the business.