a Frock Coat pic for Sator and Guille

[pchong]

Shot this of our tour guide - in character as Frederike Gutkaes, in Dresden recently. Comments on authenticity circa 1820s?

[jruley]

Comments on authenticity circa 1820s?

Since no one else has answered, I'll take a crack at it.

I'm afraid your guide is much better dressed for the 1920's than the 1820's. The hat, shirt, tie, trousers and shoes are all obviously modern. The broad, padded shoulders of the coat are very 20th century. And the shiny lapels, easy waist, and sleeve shape all mark it as no earlier than last quarter 19th century.

Here are a couple of plates from Norris and Curtis's "Nineteenth Century Costume and Fashion" illustrating typical men's costume of 1810 and 1820:


1810:



1820:



Some things to note:

- Trousers were just coming into fashion, and if worn should be cut to fit the shape of the lower leg. Often they were strapped down as in the lower figure.

- Waistcoats came no lower than the natural waist. Often they were cut low to show the fancy shirt front. Wearing more than one waistcoat (not shown) was fashionable at this time.

- Footwear is obviously not shiny Corfam pumps.

- Coats were cut very differently than modern ones. The tailcoat was still daywear in this period, with the first frocks (riding coats or redingotes) dating from 1810 according to the authors. Coats were cut to fit tight at the waist (although waist seams were not yet in common use), and often narrow in the back with poofy en gigot shoulders. Beyond the shoulders they were tight on the arm and generally cuffed. Collars and lapels were wide, and came high on the neck. Coats were also generally colored at this time, with a favorite being sky-blue or bleu celeste.

Your guide is well dressed, but not very authentically dressed.

Hope this is of interest,

Jim Ruley

[Guille]

I'm not at all an expert on the topic, but I agree with Jim that the look is too modern for 1820s. Just looking at those illustrations you can tell that the modern formal wear distinctions weren't still defined at that time. Your pic depicts a man dressed in a "ditto suit" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditto_suit), which was seen from the 1860s through 90s, but never became too common. If you notice the matching black waistcoat and trouser give the costume a funereal look. Also I can't tell very well from the pic but it seems the man is wearing a turn-down collar which was never acceptable for a frock coat (in fact by when it started to be acceptable for some formal occasions, frock coats had vanished from formal wear into historic costume), and I think the shirt has double cuffs, which are also not acceptable for formal daywear.

[S. Goldman]

Another point not yet mentioned: prior to at least the 1860s, waistcoats were generally patterned, or at minimum different in color to the coat itseld. You can see this in the plates posted by jruley.

It's worth remembering that in the 19th century even fairly prosperous men might own just three coats -- and those less well-off had fewer. Varying waistcoats was an inexpensive way of adding interest to a small wardrobe. It was also merely the fashion in daywear.

[Sator]

I have been avoiding this thread, but that thing looks so absolutely bizarre that I had to say something.

Jim has more or less covered the main points. I agree that looks about as 1820s as a particoloured costume worn with a codpiece It is even a sorry imitation of a 1920s frock coat suit, which usually took a double breasted waistcoat cut much shorter than that weird SB waistcoat. Also, is he wearing patent leather derbies ? And what sort of a sorry knot is on that cravatte? And where is his cravatte pin? And why oh why is he wearing a low and attached turndown collar? And where is his fob chain? And where the dress gloves? And why on a frock with a chest pocket (a no no with purists) has he omitted a pocket square (a double no no). And...and...

This is a proper late Victorian to Edwardian frock coat suit:



Frock coats came in well after the 1820s, when dress coats were still being worn as daytime dress. The way Beau Brummell dressed better represents typical 1820s dress:



Note well that in the 1820s shoes were mostly worn by women. Men usually wore boots, with the exception of pumps.

[RWS]

Two quick notes: first, German styles (and Continental styles in general) did not necessarily follow English styles, particularly in details; second, there are many lovely German genre paintings from the Biedermeier period showing middle-class dress -- it would be easy to find and copy a nice costume from the 1820s. Nevertheless, I'm pleased that Peter's tour guide did try to evoke an earlier period than the present for his visitors.

[Sator]

By the 1820s English dress set the trend for the whole of Continental Europe and the Western world. It was the French who started it after the French Revolution. Before then the styles of the Parisian courts dominated Europe, afterwards - however intensely the French may have detested the English - a fit of anglomania swept France. Even English styled aristocratic country dress was considered preferable to the dress of the French courts.

Here are examples of English styled dress from German texts on costume history.

The first is of a Biedermeier styled dress coat from c1835 scanned from the English translation of Carl Köhler's A History of Costume (1928):



Next is a fashion plate from das Journal des Luxus und der Moden, 1822:



It comes from Erika Thiel's "Geschichte des Kostüms: Die europäische Mode von Anfängen bis zur Gegenwart". This English style of dress swept Germany through Paris, and whereas the French thought of it as being English, the Germans thought of it as being an invasion from France.

Erika Thiel enters into discussion on a so-called Emanzipationsbestrebung (sic !) ie emancipation movement to liberate Germany from the domination of French fashion. Here is an example of altdeutscher Tracht in a painting by Carl Schumacher c.1828:



Notice the lack of the famous starched neck cloth which originated from Beau Brummell. The followers of the Emanzipationsbestrebung talked about liberation from "der knechtischen Tuch" - the slavish cloth, or the cloth of the servile. Instead the shirt collar is soft, loose and free.

However, followers of this movement represented a dwindling minority of students and artists. The industrial revolution only furthered this process of the progressive marginalisation of national costume throughout Europe, although it continued to survive in rural areas for much longer.

In no way did German national folk costume ever involve anybody dressing in the English fashion of the frock coat suit almost 80 years ahead of the rest of Europe.

[pchong]

Interesting points. I suspected he was not correctly dressed...but he had tremendous presence, and a beautiful speaking voice. Looking like Liam Neeson helped to swoon the ladies in my group too...

The guide who played his son was dressed thus:




Antonia Gutkaes:



And the Architect of the famous Frauenkirche - George Bahr next to the younger Gutkaes:

[Sator]

Isn't it plainly obvious they are wearing cheaply hired fancy dress?

[pchong]

yes it is, but there is no need to be rude...