Black tie questions

[Sammyo77]

My apologies if these have been covered previously. I used the search function but couldn't turn anything up.

1. Is a pocket square appropriate with black tie? I remember being told that, strictly speaking, one does not wear a pocket square for such occasions. Is my memory playing tricks or do others agree? If in favour of a pocket square, is silk or linen preferable (I am assuming an all white or white with black trim square).

2. Braces and cummerbund together? Again, I remember being taught that this was a weak look but the people over on AAAC are in favour of the combination. Could this be an English/American thing or am I just mistaken again?

3. Turnover collar or wingtip collar? Again, I thought that the former was correct for black tie but something on AAAC made me think that there are differing views on this.

I am particularly interested on English views as there are sometimes differing standards in the US and elsewhere (e.g. I know that in Australia wingtip collars are near ubiquitous at black tie occasions).

[Concordia]

Pocket square is optional-- I'd take your cue from the gathering about this. Some black tie events are very formal, and others quite convivial.

Cummerbunds seem to have fallen in some disrepute, especially in England. But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them, and one should always wear braces with trousers. After all, you won't be removing your jacket, so why not have your trousers look good?

Turn-down collar a little less formal, as it is often used with a softer shirt. The Duke of Windsor mated this style with his DB dinner jackets. It is also a little less risky, as wing collars are hard to implement properly. Still, for a really spiffy 1920s look (think "Chariots of Fire"), a wing collar on a pique shirt with waistcoat is very nice.

[Midnight Blue]

I discuss the difference between Americand and British attitudes towards black tie shirt collars on my site at www.blacktieguide.com. You may find some useful information there.

Peter

[Aristide]

To Midnight Blue: Thank you so much for the reference to the tuxedo website. Very informative and quite a good read.

[Collarmelton]

Avoid the attached wing collar, which, as Amies put it, are "miserably mean in height" and cannot frame the face properly, the way a real wing collar should. It is often so low that it resembles a collar band with flaps. Also, as it is attached to the shirt and is not made of the cotton and fiber blend of a real wing collar, it cannot be starched to the required degree of stiffness to give it the smooth, polished cylindrical look that makes the true wing collar elegant. A turn down collar evening shirt, by contrast, is more proportional and consequently looks dignified and correct. It is also easier to care for and has the added benefits that you won't be expected to get your prom date home by 10:00 p.m. or have to explain to irate diners why their tables aren't ready.

[Topper]

My apologies if these have been covered previously. I used the search function but couldn't turn anything up.

1. Is a pocket square appropriate with black tie? I remember being told that, strictly speaking, one does not wear a pocket square for such occasions. Is my memory playing tricks or do others agree? If in favour of a pocket square, is silk or linen preferable (I am assuming an all white or white with black trim square).

2. Braces and cummerbund together? Again, I remember being taught that this was a weak look but the people over on AAAC are in favour of the combination. Could this be an English/American thing or am I just mistaken again?

3. Turnover collar or wingtip collar? Again, I thought that the former was correct for black tie but something on AAAC made me think that there are differing views on this.

I am particularly interested on English views as there are sometimes differing standards in the US and elsewhere (e.g. I know that in Australia wingtip collars are near ubiquitous at black tie occasions).

1) Yes, Is appropriate. Typically with a suit should not be exactly the same pattern as the tie, and slightly off colour, though I find wearing the same pattern works well if also wearing a winchester shirt.

With black tie, it is permissible to use same colours ( i.e. black tie, black square & cream dinner jacket, or red bow tie , red square and black dinner jacket) - Silk all the time in my book.

2) A true Cummerbund was a wrap around sash which would have held the trouser up, so braces would not be needed. Hence considered a faux pas. Also faux pas would be cummerbund & wasitcoat. Braces & wasitcoat is ok.

BUT - if you need braces to keep you pants up then wear them

3) Wing tip is preferred for white tie, and fold down for black tie. Though in these modern times wing tips are commonly worn by the general populus.

I'd like to being back the imperial high stiff collar now that is smart!

[dopey]

... A true Cummerbund was a wrap around sash which would have held the trouser up, so braces would not be needed. Hence considered a faux pas.

Though I have no objection to braces with a cummerbund, I have been looking for a place to get an original style sash to uses as a cummerbund. It may be simple enough to make, and I can probably figure it out myself, but I have never seen the real thing, even in a photo. Any ideas on a source? Perhaps I will discover that the modern version is better than the original, but at this point, I would like to see the model.

[HappyStroller]

The original sash used by native soldiers in British India was called the cumberband.

One can still see the cumberband used by present-day Indian and Pakistani troopers, e.g.,



The cummerbund is required for black tie only if the wearer is not wearing a waistcoat or a double-breasted dinner jacket, as its function is to conceal the waistband, especially if brace buttons are on the external side of the waistband, the non-pique part of a Marcella shirt below the pique bib front, and also the front buttons that are below the shirt studs of the dress shirt .

[Concordia]

But are belts appropriate with cummerbunds?

[Topper]

There are no belt loops on dress trousers. Belts do no come into the equation.

[Topper]

The cummerbund is required for black tie only if the wearer is not wearing a waistcoat or a double-breasted dinner jacket, as its function is to conceal the waistband.....

.... also concealing opera ticket stubbs for gentleman, wire garrottes and villainous devices for cads, or coils of rope and hidden spy cameras for secret agent type characters!

[Concordia]

There are no belt loops on dress trousers. Belts do no come into the equation.

http://www.answers.com/topic/india-military-06-jpg

[dopey]

There are no belt loops on dress trousers. Belts do no come into the equation.

http://www.answers.com/topic/india-military-06-jpg

I don't see any belt loops.

[Concordia]

The belts are held up by the same technicians who train the snakes.

Westerners require loops to get the same effect.

[manton]

Dopey, the book The Elegant Man has a photo of an English gent wearing a true sash cummerbund.