Morning coat pattern?

[Carey]

As a longtime lurker, I now have a question that seems unanswerable by laymen, so I turn to you, the experts: where can one procure a sewing pattern for a morning coat? I didn't think it would be so difficult to find, but I've been to sewing shops in the US (where I live) and have looked all over the web (ebay.co.uk, ebay.com, UK sewing sites...) and have been unable to find such a thing. How odd.

The reason for needing it is that my fiance wants to have his mother (an excellent seamstress with three decades of experience) make him one for our wedding. Even if he didn't want his mom to make it, purchasing one ready-made would not be an option for two reasons: (1) he wants it to be dark chocolate brown, as opposed to grey or black (this will be worn with light brown trousers, much as a black morning coat is worn with grey trousers); and (2) he's 6' tall but only 9 stone--built like Fred Astaire, in other words--so it's exceedingly difficult to find clothing for him, and morning coats are hard to find in the US in any event. As for bespoke, he had a bespoke suit made by an Italian tailor, but this tailor has now died (he was nearly 90) and we are not in an area where good tailors are readily found.

Any thoughts? Help? Advice? Obviously we are willing to pay for a pattern--the problem seems to be simply finding one at all!

[Sator]

I would suggest this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Work-Cut ... 402&sr=8-2

It has elaborate instructions on how to draft a pattern for a morning coat (or being American it calls it a 'cutaway'). The section for how to draft the skirt is on a different page however.

There are a few cautionary things about the pattern. Firstly it shows the old fashioned style with notch lapels but this should surely not cause a problem for there are examples of frock coats and DB lounge coats with peak lapels aplenty here. The other thing to keep in mind is that fact that a modern morning coat has a one button closure, whereas the ones here show a 3 button closure. Again, the modification to the pattern should be minimal. Likewise, the length of the skirt should be to the top of the knees - the fashion in 1886 was a slightly shorter skirt. You will have to experiment with what you want with the height of the waist according to taste.

The pattern is similar to this one which I have extracted from Waugh's The Cut of Men's Clothes:



It is the only useful pattern for a morning coat in the book and is similar to what is found in the Standard Work on Cutting. Note the 3 button closure and notch lapels.

[jruley]

(deleted by original poster)

[Sator]

I own all of the RL Shep tailoring books. I deliberately avoided quoting patterns from them because most of them are somewhat older. Minister for example does not even have a pattern for a morning coat, as they had not really come into fashion at that time. Newmarket coat (or 'riding coat') is just an older term for a morning coat. The Standard Work on Cutting dates from a bit later and that is why I chose if over the RL Shep reprints.

[jruley]

(deleted by original poster)

[Carey]

Thanks so much to all of you! I've ordered the Doyle book--which, interestingly, is far less expensive directly from Sartorial Press than it is on Amazon.com; I checked, just to compare--and I may also order the 1886 book from the amazon link. Will see how things go, and will post a photo here when the suit is made.

[Sator]

It's true that most of the Shep reprints are of mainly historical interest. However, the "Blue Book of Men's Tailoring", by Frederick Croonborg, dates from 1907 and has some frock coat patterns that look interesting. He doesn't specifically call it a "Morning Coat", but the "Novelty One Button Frock Coat" shown on pp 192-193 is cut away in much the same fashion.

It's interesting how the meaning of tailoring terms changes over time. DeVere's 1866 book defines a "Morning Coat" as having the skirt cut in one piece with the forepart. Nothing is said about a cutaway skirt, and in fact the draft shows a shape similar to a conventional frock. The "Newmarket" is a distinct draft and the skirt actually has more in common with the dress coat (tailcoat) than a frock. I wonder when the term "Morning Coat" acquired its modern meaning?

Morning coats only came in later in the 19th C. Initially they were considered casual dress. The name comes from the fact that gentlemen wore them for riding as part of their morning exercise. Polite society was horrified when men started to wear them into town.

The dress coat too originally had no waist seam. In Beau Brummell's time they certainly didn't. The same was true for the riding coat. The waist seam allows a much more fitted cut which looks smarter and dressier. Terms like Newmarket, riding coat - even frock coat - were occasionally used a bit more loosely earlier on until the proper forms became better established. However, I have never seen a Newmarket coat with square cutaway fronts in the manner of a dress coat.

[jruley]

(deleted by original poster)

[Sator]

I thought you meant the cutaway front which is squarely or horizontally cut away on a dress coat, at an angle on a Newmarket coat (or a morning coat) and not at all on a frock coat. I see you are just talking about the angle of flare of the skirt at the back. However, it is of course the cutaway (or lack thereof) which determines the character of the coat.

[wbpitts]

After spending the last year as an undercutter on Savile Row, I would like to offer you one caveat regarding having your fiance's mother make his morning coat. Of course I have no idea of her skill, however I can tell you that I have seen the process of a morning coat being made from measurements to finished product. Because the morning coat is a "body coat" and very fitted, it requires precise cutting and a very specific construction, including quilting the chest canvas. Because of this, the cutters I have spoken to say it is one of the hardest things to cut correctly and tailors tell me it is the hardest thing to make up. Unless your future mother-in-law is VERY experienced in specifically making this type of coat, I would highly suggest looking into finding a good tailor that travels to an area near you.

As for the patterns you've been shown, they are great starting points, but in addition to the measurements required for making the pattern, you will also need to have an understanding of body figuration and the necessary pattern alterations it requires to get any coat, especially a body coat, to fit properly. Just having the drafting system is a bit like having the blue prints to build a house with no idea of the terrain you're building it on. Again, I would suggest a professional with experience cutting and making up body coats.

Just my humble opinion.

Good luck and Congrats!

[Sator]

After spending the last year as an undercutter on Savile Row, I would like to offer you one caveat regarding having your fiance's mother make his morning coat. Of course I have no idea of her skill, however I can tell you that I have seen the process of a morning coat being made from measurements to finished product. Because the morning coat is a "body coat" and very fitted, it requires precise cutting and a very specific construction, including quilting the chest canvas. Because of this, the cutters I have spoken to say it is one of the hardest things to cut correctly and tailors tell me it is the hardest thing to make up. Unless your future mother-in-law is VERY experienced in specifically making this type of coat, I would highly suggest looking into finding a good tailor that travels to an area near you.

Yes, I would agree with this entirely. You are looking at 40 hours of work to make the coat properly. You would have to have a very dedicated mother-in-law. A bespoke tailor will charge you almost twice as much as for a lounge coat (eg blazer).

I also agree that the cut has to be very fitted. Every period illustration shows body coats as being very fitted through the waist even on coats designed to be worn open. It should not have a loose or sack like fit. Also the only colours that are considered acceptable are black, and charcoal grey

[couch]

After spending the last year as an undercutter on Savile Row, I would like to offer you one caveat regarding having your fiance's mother make his morning coat. Of course I have no idea of her skill, however I can tell you that I have seen the process of a morning coat being made from measurements to finished product.

wbpitts, welcome to the Lounge. It's always a pleasure to have an artisan join the discussion. Are you continuing in the craft?

[jruley]

(deleted by original poster)

[Sator]

Also the only colours that are considered acceptable are black, and charcoal grey

With respect, acceptable to whom, and for what? I'm sure these are the only "generally accepted" colors in formal "society", but this garment is being made for your wedding.

You may of course choose whatever colours you wish - powder blue, purple or pink. However, tradtionally charcoal and black were the only colours admissible. In Victorian and Edwardian times anything else was consider nothing less than immoral. As I say, you may do as you please, but you will find few friends of mutant formal dress amongst the traditionalists here. Why would anyone with even an inkling of interest in historic dress have such disrespect for the traditional rules?

[jruley]

(deleted by original poster)