New York stores

[Guest]

RWS, you should laugh at me, because I live in a bustling metropolis yet there is no where to buy men's colognes (except for a few of the usual suspects) whether Truefit, Guerlain, or anything else not promoted by the Central Fragrance Committee of the People's Republic of America. So if you live in a small town, at least you have an excuse!

[Mark Seitelman]

Dr. B:

What are Kabay and Liste Rouge? My office is at 111 Broadway, and I am a couple of blocks from Liste Rouge. I believe that you referred to Liste Rouge as a shirtmaker. Any good?

The Downtown area is pretty much a desert. The best clothiers are uptown because that's where the money is. There used to be an interesting shirtmaker downtown, Mark Christoper. A custom clothier opened at Water Street near John Street, Carmine and Arthur Custom Clothiers. I shall do some exploring.

[Guest]

Liste Rouge is a bespoke shirtmaker that has a large Internet presence, sort of like a much better run, expensive Jantzen. They do a first shirt fitting by mail, but that did not stop them from making a serious error with some subsequent orders that made the shirts uncomfortable. They have offered me a free shirt for my trouble but I think this is an example of "remote bespoke" troubles. Their shirts are about 200 dollars per shirt. Stitching on the sides is double-needle, and their selection of fabrics is nothing special (though improving all the time, they keep trying ways to fit more variety into the pack they send to customers with swatches, to keep postage down). The American director, Nicolas, is particularly nice. Had I been deeply committed to them as a shirtmaker I would have made them re-do the three shirts they screwed up and ordered a bunch more, and that would have erased the memory of the badness. But there are a lot of alternatives in the 200 dollar area, and I have not even tried Barton, the most prestigious shirtmaker in Philadelphia, yet. Now that I have begun with Bugelli, even at 300 bucks/pop, I really find unlikely I will ever buy anything but his shirts, Barba, and maybe the Barba-like shirts called Giampaulo that are offered at a small boutique here that specializes in D'Avenza.

Kabay is a small boutique with an interesting owner who is a Francophone Turk so far as I can tell (I mean interesting in a good way, not the NYC way), that sells Finamore and Barba shirts for about 250 dollars/shirt including alterations, as well as Caruso suits and Campanile shoes (the latter not to my taste). Some of the fabrics in the shirts are too fashion-forward, but I liked the suits very much which were distinctively Neopolitan in styling with a lot of handpicking. One thing that impressed me was his effort to keep prices down by purchasing fabric and providing that to Caruso to make into suits, with the fabric labels prominantly displayed. It struck me as very "Cloth Club"-ish.

[MildlyConsumptiv]

I was in New York this past weekend and visited the Kabay store, on your recommendation Dr Bresch, and was most impressed. I bought an unlined denim casual jacket which I thought was unique and quite nice. I am thinking about changing the buttons on it though.

[Guest]

I am glad, makijng recomendations to this group of connoisseurs is nerve-wracking!

[Fashionicon]

Dr Bresch,

You indicated that you have begun to have shirts made by Bugelli. Were you measured in Italy or did you send him your measurments?

Thanks.

[Guest]

I sent him a Jantzen shirt to copy. He sent me a shirt, which did not fit because he copied the shirt correctly and then added darts. So I have returned it and I am awaiting the result.

[tteplitzmd]

I am always vicariously gratified to find others have experienced an esteemed maker to modfiy without asking something you want copied! Darts seem to be a common manifestation: I got a darted jacket once without asking for it, despite showing what I wanted stylistically to be copied. In this regard, the very best Hong Kong makers excell:
they don't consider it demeaning or insulting to copy something. They may suggest improvements, but not do so without your permisssion.

I will see Mr. Bugellli in July and will be wearing a London shirt I like but would like to have some changes---e.g. french front (no placket)

Terry Teplitz

P.S.
David, how is the Romanian steak?

[bry2000]

I don't know the first thing about Mr. Bugelli, but isn't it a little odd to send such a master shirtmaker a Jantzen shirt to copy. If you are hungry and wanted a meal, would you send Gordan Ramsey a Big Mac to copy? No offense to Jantzen intended.

[tteplitzmd]

I think improving on someone's bespoke garment is a legitimate effort. I took a very nice NYC covert cloth overcoat full custom, as a model to another tailor, who made a coat for me in a different cloth: he showed me what he would suggest doing differently, and why, but otherwise stuck to the model----it was very good.

P.S.I stay at the Connaught in London, and ever since Angella Harnett ("a protoge of Gordon Ramsey") took over, I have yet to find anything I would eat on the new menu. I actually might prefer a Big Mac to pig cheeks.

Terry A. Teplitz

[Guest]

I think you are exagerating how good these artisan's works can be. A shirt is still just a shirt. I sent him a Jantzen shirt to copy for the same reason I sent my pantsmaker a pair of Land's End pants to copy, because this was a garment whose measurements were the best I had. I invited him to make whatever stylistic changes he thought best, which he did. I did not send either of these artisans garments with the goal on improving on garments I allready had, I sent them garments with the intention of acquiring new things I needed. In both cases, I sought things with specific colors to match things I allready wore.

That Jantzen shirt is actually very nice. Most importantly, it fits me well and comfortably.

Terry, the issue with the darts was not stylistic. I appreciated any stylistic tweaks Bugelli cared to make. But by adding darts after he had copied the shirt, he made it too tight in the belly.

By the way, Romanian steak is not Romanian at all.

Finally, I want to throw out there that I strongly disagree with the labelling of "remote bespoke" or any of various methods of acquiring garments, as bad, and some sort of ideal situation of local master craftsman, as good. The issue is not of right and wrong, but of easier versus more difficult. Getting my shirts for example, at Barton of Philadelphia, would have been easier than getting them from Bugelli. But dealing with Bugelli was a whole lot more fun. Plus, Bugelli has the Florentine savoir-faire. And flair. And warmth. He made a mistake, there is no doubt, but who cares? He will fix it.

The "right" way to get a suit is to go to a local brilliant craftsman like Centofanti and have one made. The "wrong" way is to go to a boutique and buy one off the rack. I have never gone wrong with Centofanti in any way, that is true. But I have some nice RTW jackets that I enjoy. They were more "difficult" in various ways (less durability, not exactly what I wanted). But they are still very nice. My most comfortable jacket is still my Borrelli ordered off eBay, which I realize now looks fine and is not out of balance at all despite the length alteration it required (I have seen that pocket placement actually varies from jacket to jacket and is not set in stone at all). My point is, a great shirt can come from Jantzen or Bugelli, a great suit from Chan, RTW, or Centofanti. But the best of these artisans make getting great clothes almost effortless.

[tteplitzmd]

I do understand the conept of bespoking a Lands End pair of slacks. I think there are several variables: fit, workmanship, cloth, foreplay in the transactional process, price, geography, etc.
I have had bad experiences at all price points, and therein lies the lesson: if you find something that works for you, it's probably wise to stick with it. I am going to visit Bugelli and wear a Dege shirt, that is 90% OK. I am hoping Bugelli will improve on the remaining 10% without messing up the good 90%. (The unwanted darts put in my jacket I made reference to substantially altered the look of the jacket, I don't want jacket darts. Shirt darts are another story of course).

I thought there is such a thing as a Roumainian flank steak. No?

[Guest]

There is Terry, but just like french fries, it has nothing to do with Romania.