Sportcoats at J. Kos

[RWS]

The New York chapter of the Lounge last convened at J. Kos, a fine little men's shop on Park Avenue. At the insistence of the eponymous owner, I tried on a handsome sportcoat: it fit beautifully, light as a feather and, best of all, with the "grip" around neck and shoulders that we all prize in our tailor-made coats: no off-the-rack coat has ever fit me so well.

Mr. Kos boasted that the coat, as his other sportcoats and suits, was made by "the oldest maker in Italy". Naturally, I asked who that maker is -- only to be told, cryptically, that I "wouldn't know it".

Well, does any member of our group -- Giona, perhaps -- know just who that maker is, and where it is located? Any observations on the durability of the garments produced? Does the maker offer bespoke, or made-to-measure?

Any information will be received gratefully!

[Guest]

I have a friend from Sardinia that says that the oldest italian Sartoria is Sartoria Castangia, that dates from 1850.

As far as I know today they does not do bespoke, but MTM, though everything is hand made. But I do not have first hand experience.

Giona.

[Mark Seitelman]

Dear Robb,

I also tried on a blazer, and it fit very well. I would be tempted to try it if I were not so well entrenched with that other store down the block.

Dr. B in another post asked about the Castangia clothes. Also Jay Kos does not do bespoke. Therefore, this may be the manufacturer.

One small criticism. The pick stitching on the lapels and lining were by machine. For that price I would expect hand stitching at least on the lapels and pockets.

Best wishes,

Mark

[RWS]

. . . . The pick stitching on the lapels and lining were by machine. For that price I would expect hand stitching at least on the lapels and pockets. . . .

I would, too, Mark. I suspected the pick-stitching was machine-made simply because of its regularity. How did you reach that conclusion? (In another thread, I wrote of my aversion to pick-stitching, born partly of the near ubiquity of machine-made stitching masquerading as handmade.)

Our favorite shop isn't in imminent danger of losing my custom -- but I did like the lightness and fit of (what I now assume to be) Castangia!

[Mark Seitelman]

Jay admitted to me that the coats had machine stitching.

The Jay Kos coats had very good machine pick stitching.

Poor machine stitching is very pronounced and looks like the regularly spaced rivets on the hull of an ocean liner. Better machine picking is less visible at first glance.

One way of detecting machine pick stitching is to look under the collar/lapels. If the stitching is regularly spaced, then its machine made. Another sign is at the point that lapel rolls out from the front buttons. With machine stitching the transition is obvious.

Also, the lining was machine stitched. It had regularly spaced stitches approximately 1/8 inch from the shell cloth to give to the illusion of hand stitching. Again, real hand stitching is irregularly spaced.

Jay said that many Europeans do not focus on small details, such as hand versus machine stitching. He said that Americans are obsessed with these details. Whether that is so or not I cannot say.

My own crazy thinking is that if the manufacturer skimps on the pick stitching, then who knows what shortcuts have been taken in the innards. (BTW, our favorite maker had hand stitching of the collar, lapels, pockets, and lining [although this stitching is not readily visible]).

In any event, it was a very nice coat, and I had a better opinion of his clothes after my try-on.

[RWS]

Thanks, Mark. I must say (having just read a few roiling threads on AAAC) that your posts and those of nearly all our fellow Loungers never fail to instruct. We mightn't have quite the same amusement as AAAC or other 'sites, but I definitely enjoy the friendly calm of our enlightened precincts!

[T4phage]

Originally posted by Mark Seitleman:

Jay said that many Europeans do not focus on small details, such as hand versus machine stitching. He said that Americans are obsessed with these details. Whether that is so or not I cannot say.

Well, this European certainly does. I believe Giona and Michael are as fastidious. Maybe he refers to the English?

[RWS]

Originally posted by Mark Seitleman:

Jay said that many Europeans do not focus on small details, such as hand versus machine stitching. He said that Americans are obsessed with these details. Whether that is so or not I cannot say.

Well, this European certainly does. I believe Giona and Michael are as fastidious. Maybe he refers to the English?

As one who long lived and learned in England, and who still occasionally sees English friends and kinsmen, I think I may say that England has no lack of the fastidious. We may mark Jay Kos's comment down to ignorance: his own, or (in his perception) his customers'.

[T4phage]

Originally posted by Mark Seitleman:

Jay said that many Europeans do not focus on small details, such as hand versus machine stitching. He said that Americans are obsessed with these details. Whether that is so or not I cannot say.

Well, this European certainly does. I believe Giona and Michael are as fastidious. Maybe he refers to the English?

As one who long lived and learned in England, and who still occasionally sees English friends and kinsmen, I think I may say that England has no lack of the fastidious. We may mark Jay Kos's comment down to ignorance: his own, or (in his perception) his customers'.

I was merely kidding about the English! I've seen many people who buy "high end" suits such as Kiton/Brioni/etc... mainly for the bragging rights.. status that such clothing will infer about them... with no thoughts as to the handwork/machine stitching on them.

[RWS]

I was merely kidding about the English! I've seen many people who buy "high end" suits such as Kiton/Brioni/etc... mainly for the bragging rights.. status that such clothing will infer about them... with no thoughts as to the handwork/machine stitching on them.

Boy, are you right, Jan!

People are the same the world over. There are superficial kinds everywhere; add money -- and, in with economic recession, we've much new affluence -- and the result all too often is uncritical acquisition or, worse, acquisition in hope that it will change the acquirer or assuage his self-doubts. Sad; but, then, it does mean less competition for what we want!

[Mark Seitelman]

I was quoting what Jay told me.

All that I can say is that this is typical Jay talk. You should hear him expound on many other things, such as Savile Row. Also, he's trying to sell a coat or two. After all, he is running a store on some expensive real estate.

Jay could get his RTW and MTM with real pick stitching for a small additional cost. Perhaps, this is what sells, and this makes more money for the store. Ttherefore he sells it and believes that it is best.

Cheers.

[T4phage]

I was merely kidding about the English! I've seen many people who buy "high end" suits such as Kiton/Brioni/etc... mainly for the bragging rights.. status that such clothing will infer about them... with no thoughts as to the handwork/machine stitching on them.

Boy, are you right, Jan!

People are the same the world over. There are superficial kinds everywhere; add money -- and, in with economic recession, we've much new affluence -- and the result all too often is uncritical acquisition or, worse, acquisition in hope that it will change the acquirer or assuage his self-doubts. Sad; but, then, it does mean less competition for what we want!

Well.. I would argue that there are not enough of "us" to help keep the bespoke arts alive.. and we need to convert these people to 'our' way of looking at things ! After all, that is one of the tenents of the London Lounge!

True Story
I was at a store selling Kiton when a rather dishivelled older gentlemen walked in... he was wearing a polo shirt under a oversized baseball style suede jacket, his khaki jeans-styled trousers looked large on him.. so much so that it was slipping off his derrier! The salespeople apparently knew him (later on I was informed that he was a very weathly machinery importer with homes in 3 countries). He was looking for a suit and was steered towards Kiton. Initially he was shocked at the price and asked why he should pay that amount of money... the conversation sort of went like this:

Rich Man: What!! That is ridiculous! That is too expensive! Why should I buy it?
Salesperson: Well, it is all handmade and feel the fabrics.
Rich Man: So?
Salesperson: Well, you have such an expensive Jaguar, you should have the best suit!
Rich Man: Hmmmm...
Salesperson: You know the Jaguar repairmen also drive Jags.
Rich Man: So?
Salesperson: Well, they won't have a Kiton suit.
Rich Man: Hmm Okay... let me try it..

Needless to say he ended up purchasing one! Madness. I had to run out of the store when he agreed to buy it.. I couldn't control myself any longer... and laughed myself silly.

[Leonard Logsdail]

A little tidbit for you all to shew on. I was in Italy a few years ago visiting a couple of really goo manufactirers. One proudle told me of his "hand edge pick stitching" machine. I asked him what he meant by that. He told me that it was programmed to stitch irregularly so as to more closely imitate real hand stitching.

Len

[T4phage]

A little tidbit for you all to shew on. I was in Italy a few years ago visiting a couple of really goo manufactirers. One proudle told me of his "hand edge pick stitching" machine. I asked him what he meant by that. He told me that it was programmed to stitch irregularly so as to more closely imitate real hand stitching.

Len

Were you still able to distingush between a handstiched lapel edging versus this 'new' machinework? What are the telltale signs in this case?

[Guest]

Jan, that is a great story! I can't help laughing around!!! I can see that movie!

Anyway, my tailor showed me a buttonhole made with a "hand stitched buttonhole" machine. I couldn't distinguish. He barely does. Other side of the story: this machines are so slow and expensive.