"Straight or Crooked"

[uppercase]

What's crooked in Italian?

Or do only the British know about this?

[The Doctor]

Gentlemen,

I have just posted a new article on English Cut, "Straight or Crooked".

http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000072.html

Basically the fit of a straight coat has less material forward of the neck point on the front edge. This gives the jacket a slimmer feel, showing more shirt, especially on a double breasted. Also another characteristic is that the collar although fitted well, sits lower around the neck. This again shows more of the shirt and gives a slimmer feel to the wearer. This cut gives the feeling of a more youthful cut simply because as we age we invariably gain a little in the front. We then obviously require more material to compensate, or less when we are slim.

A crooked coat has basically the opposite characteristics. The coat should always fit neatly around the collar, however it will generally sit higher, showing less of the shirt collar stand. Also even if the coat is slim through the side seams it will still be easy in the front. There will be less shirt showing, again especially on double breasted.

I hope you find it informative.

Thank you.

Again like, Mr. Logsdail I don't like to criticize but I think the diagram would have been better shown by moving the neck point rather than the front edge to show a straight and crooked coat.

And I have to disagree with the coat Jimmy Stewart is wearing, I would say it is a straight coat rather than a crooked one, which has a 7" or 8" wrap, therefore making the opening shorter and close on his neck.

Also, the stripes should tell you if it was a straight or crooked coat by the angle on the jacket. If they ran diagonally from the neck point to the armhole it would suggest that it was crooked but they run vertically, which suggests it is a straight coat.

Edwin DeBoise

[alden]

Gents,

Here is the photo of Jimmy Stewart referred to in The Doctor’s post. See that the chalkstripes are vertical on this coat as they descend from the shoulder line.



Note the difference with this Prince Charles’s DB where the lines are more diagonal.



Dear Doctor,

Can you tell us your view on the pros and cons of the crooked vs straight cut?

Cheers

M Alden

[The Doctor]

Dear Michael,

Basically there are 4 balances on a coat. Front & back and Straight & Crooked.

If someone was very erect, had a prominent chest you would give him extra front balance and because he would tend to throw the coat off & away from his chest and neck you should cut a more crooked coat to bring it back on to him.

On the contrary if someone was round back and stooping then he would be bring the jacket on to him, so he would require more back balance and a straighter coat, to throw it off and away from his neck.

I will try and draw a diagram over the weekend to help explain.

Best,

Edwin

[dopey]

I have always hated this thread. At the best of times, I have a fleeting understanding of the concept. And then all comprehension flees my mind. Part of the problem is, I think, not my own in that there may be more than one fundamental interpretation of the concept, i.e., different tailors have used it to describe entirely different principles. Other times, it just me not getting it. I welcome Mr. DeBoise and hope I have better luck with his explanation.

[DD MacDonald]

I'm with Dopey in destesting this thread because the concept was far too elusive for my mind to grasp. Many thanks to Michael, Edwin, Leonard and Thomas for the illumination.

Do I smoke this correctly that straight or crooked do not seem to be something for which we punters would ask, more how the artisans would improve our drooping and bulging appearances?

If so, then bravo to the tailors!

DDM

[the tailor]

I tend to agree with the doctor, re Jimmy Stewart.
On the crooked straight issue, my thoughts:-
Staightness and crooked should not be looked at as movement of the neck point in merly a straight line, be that back or forward.
Straightness and crooked are a combination of advance and depression of the neck point for a straight cut. And a lifting and receeding neck point for a crooked cut.
One very simple method to understand straight and crooked.
Lets take the front sleeve pitch notch, or the front scye notch, as a starting point and also look at it as a pivot point, or the centre of a wheel.
There are other effects that will happen from doing the following, but I shall keep it merly to the basics.
If you hold the pattern at this position and rotate it down, the neck point is advanced and depressed, giving a straight cut.
If it is moved the opposite way, the neck point receeds and is a crooked cut.
The straight cut forces cloth down, into the scye area helping to give drape.
The crooked cut does the opposite and cleans the front scye area and gives a wider across chest.
I shall put a diagram on my website to help with the explanation

[The Doctor]

Hope this helps but quite honestly you should let the tailor worry.

Sorry couldn't get it any bigger.

You would need to pick up the neck point for straighten & drop for Crookening so that you don't alter the balance.

[alden]

I think this post demonstrates why customers need to assume their natural stance during measuring and fitting. If a stooped client stands erect for a fitting, the tailor might draw the wrong pattern. Stand naturally and you will help the tailor fit you best.

[Leonard Logsdail]

A client should never ask for a straight or a crooked coat. All the client should ask for and expect a coat that is well balanced. The only time crookening or straightening come into play is when the tailor fits a coat and desides it needs one of these alterations in order to fit properly. End of story!!!

Leonard

[alden]

All the client should ask for and expect a coat that is well balanced.

Leonard

And in order to expect, recognize, appreciate, and recompense excellent balance, don't you think the client is well advised to know what "balance" is: front vs back, straight vs crooked.

I do believe that an educated client is a better client.

[Martin Stall]

All the client should ask for and expect a coat that is well balanced.

Leonard

And in order to expect, recognize, appreciate, and recompense excellent balance, don't you think the client is well advised to know what "balance" is: front vs back, straight vs crooked.

I do believe that an educated client is a better client.

Now that is something that I vehemently agree with.

[iammatt]

Gents,

Here is the photo of Jimmy Stewart referred to in The Doctor’s post. See that the chalkstripes are vertical on this coat as they descend from the shoulder line.



Note the difference with this Prince Charles’s DB where the lines are more diagonal.



Dear Doctor,

Can you tell us your view on the pros and cons of the crooked vs straight cut?

Cheers

M Alden

It seems to me that if somebody were to grab Stewart's coat by the collar and pull it up and back, the stripes would look very much like those on the coat of Prince Charles'. This seems to be consistent with the changes that Des Merrion describes. After pulling thusly, the coat would need to have the shoulders extended and the chest would likely be a bit cleaner, also keeping with what Des said. It would alos be necessary to make the backneck shorter which is very consistent with what Alden describes as his preference along with having a crooked coat.

If this visualization is correct (and I am not sure that it is), simply looking at these two coats and visualizing this could be a way to clear up a very tricky subject.

[The Doctor]

It's sitting where it's sitting and it's a straight coat.

[Leonard Logsdail]

In my opinion, Stewart's suit fits better than Charles'. It sits far nicer around the neck as opposed to Charles' suit where the collar is barley covering the leaf edge of his shirt collar. A lousy suit, if you don't mind me saying.

As to an educated customer, I have no problem with this. In fact, i believe in telling my clients what alterations I plan on making as i fit a suit. Some are genuinely interested and i am happy to explain further. but there comes a point when the talking is finished. And remember talk, after all, is cheap. It's easy to"'say" what is wrong with a suit. but after the client has left, the suit actually has to be worked on and decisions have to made and cutting shears put to expensive cloths. Fankly, and this is being frank, at this point the amatuers go back to their regular jobs where they are the prfoessional and leave us clothing professionals to understand the miriad nuances of actually making a garment that cannot be grasped in any other way but by years of experience, and actually performing the tasks. BIG difference..