This is drape from four of the leading tailors in the world today.
This Ken Doll is not drape
What is drape?
I had a question about drape.
This is drape from four of the leading tailors in the world today.
This Ken Doll is not drape
This is drape from four of the leading tailors in the world today.
This Ken Doll is not drape
The Ken doll does have an open buttonhole though. That has to count for something 
The drape on Luca's coat looks to extend higher on the chest than the others. I would not notice this but for the fact that my coats from Rubinacci also show this as do all of the coats that I have ever seen Mariano wear. Is there a reason for this? The only thing that I can think of is that they might be a touch softer than some English made coats, but I can't imagine that there is much of a difference there. Here is a picture of Mariano showing the same thing:
, and one more of Luca
, and one more of LucaLooks to me in Matt's R photos that Mariano has much more drape in his coat than in son Luca's coat. The shoulder seam on Mariano's coat extends quite a bit beyond the natural shoulder.
Generally, Mariano likes a very comfortable, roomy coat while Luca seems to design a bit snugger, form fitting coat.
Perhaps this is a function of the taste of two different generations.
Also, the photo of Mariano seems to be an older one; notice the quite low gorge while Luca has the higher, typically Neapolitan gorge. Today, R will make you a higher gorge as their default house style.
Also, apropos of buttoning points mentioned in another recent post, notice the pretty low buttoning points on both R coats; the Italians generally like a lower point in general as they feel that that nice, long "V" front elongates the torso. But both father and son are already quite tall, taller than the average Southern Italian, but still, the this configuartion flatters both their figures.
In my own experience, I appreciate the importance of drape more and more to comfort ease and relaxation but it is a very delicate balancing act to execute properly.
It's hard now, mentally and physically, for me to wiggle into a tight fitting coat and snug trousers after experiencing the benefits of a drape cut.
Generally, Mariano likes a very comfortable, roomy coat while Luca seems to design a bit snugger, form fitting coat.
Perhaps this is a function of the taste of two different generations.
Also, the photo of Mariano seems to be an older one; notice the quite low gorge while Luca has the higher, typically Neapolitan gorge. Today, R will make you a higher gorge as their default house style.
Also, apropos of buttoning points mentioned in another recent post, notice the pretty low buttoning points on both R coats; the Italians generally like a lower point in general as they feel that that nice, long "V" front elongates the torso. But both father and son are already quite tall, taller than the average Southern Italian, but still, the this configuartion flatters both their figures.
In my own experience, I appreciate the importance of drape more and more to comfort ease and relaxation but it is a very delicate balancing act to execute properly.
It's hard now, mentally and physically, for me to wiggle into a tight fitting coat and snug trousers after experiencing the benefits of a drape cut.
The buttoning point in both photos is too low. When the button point occurs just above the natural waist (ie the most narrow point), shape occurs naturally. These examples of jackets lack shape that would be there otherwise if the button point were higher.Also, apropos of buttoning points mentioned in another recent post, notice the pretty low buttoning points on both R coats; the Italians generally like a lower point in general as they feel that that nice, long "V" front elongates the torso. But both father and son are already quite tall, taller than the average Southern Italian, but still, the this configuartion flatters both their figures.
Once you have been fit properly for this style of dress, it is practically impossible to go back! I think that's the good news....It's hard now, mentally and physically, for me to wiggle into a tight fitting coat and snug trousers after experiencing the benefits of a drape cut.
Cheers
M Alden
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masterfred
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I note that in a couple of the other "style" websites a discussion of the drape cut, with opinions given that the drape is dated. Why a draped suit should look any more dated than a tight-fitting, hacking-style suit is rather beyond me (with the understanding that any cut can look "dated" - vide the heavily-shouldered drape suits with exaggerated lapels I recently saw in one of the "Thin Man' films). Now, I agree that the drape is not the be-all, end-all for tailoring styles - indeed, the unadulterated A&S look is not for me - but a handsome suit or jacket, cut to flatter the wearer's frame, I would say is perpetually stylish.
The limiting factor inherent to the clothes or style oriented forums, when the discussion turns to custom clothing, is that few of the posters have any first hand experience with the subject. Most of the information comes from some probably well intentioned but “empirically challenged” individuals, and some not so well intentioned flames and trouble makers. So these sites are ok for their pure entertainment value, if you want to go for a chuckle. But for the guy who has three or four thousand hard earned dollars he is about to part with for a bespoke commission, these sites have to be nerve wracking for the sheer confusion they generate.
The community of custom clothing clients and providers is a small one, almost a fraternity. Sometimes it seems like we almost all know each other. The other day in Paris when RJ and I walked into visit the bespoke work being done at Aubercy, it wasn’t a surprise to recognize five of the eight or so names on the lasts being worked, they were LL members. So it is pretty easy for those of us in the game to know who is giving advice from experience and who is blowing smoke, advertising or just having fun. It isn’t easy for the guy taking his first steps, investing a little of his kid’s college money for a new suit.
The thread you refer to about “drape” is a good example and one writer had the brutal honesty to note that most of the writers on the thread wouldn’t know drape if it came and took a bite out of their posteriors. I believe that was the substance of the message.
In my mind, you can reduce the subject of drape to one word, “comfort.” Comfort is the sine qua non of elegance. If you are not physically comfortable with your clothes and psychologically comfortable with yourself, it is difficult to be very productive, appealing, convincing, seductive, and elegant in any context, business or pleasure. I think skin tight clothing is not very comfortable, even if it is custom tailored.
Drape is not a style of dress if by style you mean “fashion.” It is more a mode of dress, a way of dressing comfortably. Jackets have more cloth in the shoulder and chest to provide ease of movement. Trousers are cut fully so one can move with grace or do calisthenics. No other messages are being sent except those communicated by ease and elegance. And those are substantial messages.
So drape is a way of dress as opposed to a fashion of dress because there is a practical and functional reason for its application. In other words, it is not something fresh off the drawing boards of a fashion designer intended to ensnare a few bucks this Spring nor is it a fashion trend of long since expired English aristocrats coming to the fore. It’s just the most comfortable way to dress in tailored clothing.
The community of custom clothing clients and providers is a small one, almost a fraternity. Sometimes it seems like we almost all know each other. The other day in Paris when RJ and I walked into visit the bespoke work being done at Aubercy, it wasn’t a surprise to recognize five of the eight or so names on the lasts being worked, they were LL members. So it is pretty easy for those of us in the game to know who is giving advice from experience and who is blowing smoke, advertising or just having fun. It isn’t easy for the guy taking his first steps, investing a little of his kid’s college money for a new suit.
The thread you refer to about “drape” is a good example and one writer had the brutal honesty to note that most of the writers on the thread wouldn’t know drape if it came and took a bite out of their posteriors. I believe that was the substance of the message.
In my mind, you can reduce the subject of drape to one word, “comfort.” Comfort is the sine qua non of elegance. If you are not physically comfortable with your clothes and psychologically comfortable with yourself, it is difficult to be very productive, appealing, convincing, seductive, and elegant in any context, business or pleasure. I think skin tight clothing is not very comfortable, even if it is custom tailored.
Drape is not a style of dress if by style you mean “fashion.” It is more a mode of dress, a way of dressing comfortably. Jackets have more cloth in the shoulder and chest to provide ease of movement. Trousers are cut fully so one can move with grace or do calisthenics. No other messages are being sent except those communicated by ease and elegance. And those are substantial messages.
So drape is a way of dress as opposed to a fashion of dress because there is a practical and functional reason for its application. In other words, it is not something fresh off the drawing boards of a fashion designer intended to ensnare a few bucks this Spring nor is it a fashion trend of long since expired English aristocrats coming to the fore. It’s just the most comfortable way to dress in tailored clothing.
What I like about drape is the way it so effectively combines aesthetic value wth practical considerations.
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Alden's comments about comfort. I like my jackets to feel, but not look, like sweaters. Fred Astaire famously used to test his A&S commisions by pirouetting around 32 Savile Row and stopping in improbable poses to see if clothes were laying correctly on his body. I have my own, less poetic test. First is the "cab test". Can I raise to extend my arm to hail a cab easily? Does the collar lift from the neck when I do? Do I feel the coat pull across the back? Second is the "steak test." I sit down and mimick the action of eating: cutting, reaching for a glass, etc. Same principle applies. This also basically covers normal, everyday activlty such as writing and using the phone. Finally, the car test. Can I manipulate the wheel easily? Shift, etc.? I have found that a lot of coats that look good when you are standing, arms down, pass few or none of these tests. Coats with a little drape do.
As to the aesthetics, some like it, some don't. I like, principally, two things about the drape cut. First, I like a coat with some shape, but not too, too much. I also prefer a fitted, tapered (or "cupping" skirt) and really don't like a flared skirt. Thus minimal shaping with a very lean chest makes the coat look too sack-like or, on a really thin guy, columnar. To make a shallow chest appear harmonious with a fitted skirt, the waist really has to be nipped in a lot further than I like. But if some drape is added to the chest, then a fairly slight amount of waist suppression appears to be more than it really is. It's the best of all possible worlds, in my view: shape without wasp-waisted hourglass excess.
Also, I personally like the slight break in the chest, near the scye. A super-clean chest doesn't do it for me. I don't begrudge it to those who prefer it, and I can see why they do. But for every argument in its favor -- precision, clean lines, businesslike, etc. -- I have a retort. Casually elegant, individualized, etc. This is a matter of taste, ulitimately, and thus not resolvable through debate.
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Alden's comments about comfort. I like my jackets to feel, but not look, like sweaters. Fred Astaire famously used to test his A&S commisions by pirouetting around 32 Savile Row and stopping in improbable poses to see if clothes were laying correctly on his body. I have my own, less poetic test. First is the "cab test". Can I raise to extend my arm to hail a cab easily? Does the collar lift from the neck when I do? Do I feel the coat pull across the back? Second is the "steak test." I sit down and mimick the action of eating: cutting, reaching for a glass, etc. Same principle applies. This also basically covers normal, everyday activlty such as writing and using the phone. Finally, the car test. Can I manipulate the wheel easily? Shift, etc.? I have found that a lot of coats that look good when you are standing, arms down, pass few or none of these tests. Coats with a little drape do.
As to the aesthetics, some like it, some don't. I like, principally, two things about the drape cut. First, I like a coat with some shape, but not too, too much. I also prefer a fitted, tapered (or "cupping" skirt) and really don't like a flared skirt. Thus minimal shaping with a very lean chest makes the coat look too sack-like or, on a really thin guy, columnar. To make a shallow chest appear harmonious with a fitted skirt, the waist really has to be nipped in a lot further than I like. But if some drape is added to the chest, then a fairly slight amount of waist suppression appears to be more than it really is. It's the best of all possible worlds, in my view: shape without wasp-waisted hourglass excess.
Also, I personally like the slight break in the chest, near the scye. A super-clean chest doesn't do it for me. I don't begrudge it to those who prefer it, and I can see why they do. But for every argument in its favor -- precision, clean lines, businesslike, etc. -- I have a retort. Casually elegant, individualized, etc. This is a matter of taste, ulitimately, and thus not resolvable through debate.
Last edited by manton on Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To add to the list-- can one play the violin easily? Can one tie a pair of shoes without wrenching the jacket apart?manton wrote:I have my own, less poetic test. First is the "cab test". Can I raise to extend my arm to hail a cab easily? Does the collar lift from the neck when I do? Do I feel the coat pull across the back? Second is the "steak test." I sit down and mimick the action of eating: cutting, reaching for a glass, etc. Same principle applies. This also basically covers normal, everyday activlty such as writing and using the phone. Finally, the car test. Can I manipulate the wheel easily? Shift, etc.? I have found that a lot of coats that look good when you are standing, arms down, pass few or none of these tests. Coats with a little drape do.
I had the pleasure of having lunch with fellow LLer Andre Yew after which I was able to accompany him to his fitting with Thomas Mahon.
I found Tom to be erudite in his explanation of drape. He subscribes fully to the improtance of ease, softness and comfort and how those factors play into the elegance of both the garment and the wearer. The whole idea reminded me a bit of wabi-sabi from Japanese aesthetics.
The three of us took a picture after the fitting, and perhaps Andre will post it here to give a couple different draped looks in one shot. Thomas did not have his coat on, but there should be a good shot of his vest and trousers.
I realize that many people here already know Tom, but if people are on the fence about meeting with him, I can only add my vote that his clothes are lovely and fit well, his fabrics and taste with them is excellent and, importantly, he is a fine man to spend the time with to see the whole process through.
I found Tom to be erudite in his explanation of drape. He subscribes fully to the improtance of ease, softness and comfort and how those factors play into the elegance of both the garment and the wearer. The whole idea reminded me a bit of wabi-sabi from Japanese aesthetics.
The three of us took a picture after the fitting, and perhaps Andre will post it here to give a couple different draped looks in one shot. Thomas did not have his coat on, but there should be a good shot of his vest and trousers.
I realize that many people here already know Tom, but if people are on the fence about meeting with him, I can only add my vote that his clothes are lovely and fit well, his fabrics and taste with them is excellent and, importantly, he is a fine man to spend the time with to see the whole process through.
Seconded, I met him for the first time during the course of his US trip, and agree with the above.iammatt wrote:I realize that many people here already know Tom, but if people are on the fence about meeting with him, I can only add my vote that his clothes are lovely and fit well, his fabrics and taste with them is excellent and, importantly, he is a fine man to spend the time with to see the whole process through.
Drape, or no Drape?
I will save room in my closet for both.
I've experienced a number of extremes of both styles; from coats which were fitted to within an inch of my life , to those with exaggerated drape.
From the Prince of Lean - Caraceni Roma - to the Duke of Drape - AS.
I like them both.
When a lean suit is executed tastefully, it is really hard to beat for conveying sophisticated, polished elegance.
It is the kind of suit that you want to wear to a soigne event; it makes you stand a bit taller and feel a bit more confident; you will sparkle and want to drink champagne.
If I where at an event, dressed by Caraceni, looking out of the corner of my eye, at my alter ego, dressed in AS, I would feel better dressed in Caraceni.
You can't beat the feeling a Caraceni bestows in terms of pure, raw sophistication and polish. It is bright, it is edgy, stimulating. It is Summer, it is la dolce vita, cocktails at Harry's Bar and Doney's.
I've never had a suit to beat it.
You must wear 'lean' in the stylish capitals and haunts of the world.
But 'drape' has an equally compelling siren call and appeals to me as well, for different reasons.
A properly executed soft drape enfolds you, comforts and soothes you. It quickly becomes an old familiar love, a bit frumpled and unstylish but loving and dependable.
And who can reject a coat which conveys those feelings?
AS made me a tweed sports coat, which seemed to me to be the natural cloth and configuration for AS.
It feels 2 sizes too large and I initially felt as if I were swimming in it.
It feels large and loose when one is used to the constriction, confinement and limitation imposed by a lean coat.
But it then began to feel so comfortable and natural, so unselfconscious and throw-away, that I wondered why all coats weren't cut this way. It was liberating.
It actually hovers over one's body, barely touching it, only lightly supported by neck and shoulders. Otherwise, it is so light and easy to wear, that it goes unnoticed.
Drape is the natural choice when one wants to forget clothing, when you want to dream, smoke your cigar or pipe, enjoy your drink and immerse yourself in others. It ceases to exist and so, allows you to enjoy the moment.
It is just there, comforting and reassuring, without being demanding or intrusive.
Drape in my mind, smells of mahogony, leather chairs, tobacco and port. It is London, not Rome. It is contemplative, it is quiet. It belongs on an individualist, used to, and comfortable with his own company.
Because it is so unselfconscious, drape, if done properly, permits the ultimate design for sophisticated, unnoticed, throw away elegance. The clothing ceases to matter and the individual emerges.
Finally, to properly understand the merits of each configuration - drape and lean - it is necessary to wear and actually experience the clothing.
If it is well done, it will speak to you.
I will save room in my closet for both.
I've experienced a number of extremes of both styles; from coats which were fitted to within an inch of my life , to those with exaggerated drape.
From the Prince of Lean - Caraceni Roma - to the Duke of Drape - AS.
I like them both.
When a lean suit is executed tastefully, it is really hard to beat for conveying sophisticated, polished elegance.
It is the kind of suit that you want to wear to a soigne event; it makes you stand a bit taller and feel a bit more confident; you will sparkle and want to drink champagne.
If I where at an event, dressed by Caraceni, looking out of the corner of my eye, at my alter ego, dressed in AS, I would feel better dressed in Caraceni.
You can't beat the feeling a Caraceni bestows in terms of pure, raw sophistication and polish. It is bright, it is edgy, stimulating. It is Summer, it is la dolce vita, cocktails at Harry's Bar and Doney's.
I've never had a suit to beat it.
You must wear 'lean' in the stylish capitals and haunts of the world.
But 'drape' has an equally compelling siren call and appeals to me as well, for different reasons.
A properly executed soft drape enfolds you, comforts and soothes you. It quickly becomes an old familiar love, a bit frumpled and unstylish but loving and dependable.
And who can reject a coat which conveys those feelings?
AS made me a tweed sports coat, which seemed to me to be the natural cloth and configuration for AS.
It feels 2 sizes too large and I initially felt as if I were swimming in it.
It feels large and loose when one is used to the constriction, confinement and limitation imposed by a lean coat.
But it then began to feel so comfortable and natural, so unselfconscious and throw-away, that I wondered why all coats weren't cut this way. It was liberating.
It actually hovers over one's body, barely touching it, only lightly supported by neck and shoulders. Otherwise, it is so light and easy to wear, that it goes unnoticed.
Drape is the natural choice when one wants to forget clothing, when you want to dream, smoke your cigar or pipe, enjoy your drink and immerse yourself in others. It ceases to exist and so, allows you to enjoy the moment.
It is just there, comforting and reassuring, without being demanding or intrusive.
Drape in my mind, smells of mahogony, leather chairs, tobacco and port. It is London, not Rome. It is contemplative, it is quiet. It belongs on an individualist, used to, and comfortable with his own company.
Because it is so unselfconscious, drape, if done properly, permits the ultimate design for sophisticated, unnoticed, throw away elegance. The clothing ceases to matter and the individual emerges.
Finally, to properly understand the merits of each configuration - drape and lean - it is necessary to wear and actually experience the clothing.
If it is well done, it will speak to you.
Lovely prose poem, UC!
Nice explanation uppercase. I agree that one must experience both, and am currently in the process of doing just that. I tend to favor the lean sculpted silhouette, but am having a sport coat made with more drape. Looking forward to experiencing the difference for myself.
It was really nice to have lunch with you, too, Matt, as well as being able to introduce you to Tom. Here's the picture (click on it to get a bigger version):iammatt wrote: The three of us took a picture after the fitting, and perhaps Andre will post it here to give a couple different draped looks in one shot.
I'm on the left wearing my first suit from Tom, Tom's in the center, and Matt is on the right wearing his Rubinacci suit, which must have been made of at least 15 oz material. We are both smiling very broadly behind those grey rectangles. My suit is made from 9 oz wool, and the next one will be in a heavier weight (a 13 oz navy chalk stripe in a DB) so the drape isn't as rumpled-looking. The vest is a bit high, but that's no big deal to me. It's still a very nice suit that I will enjoy wearing: the softness and comfort along with the fit of the shoulders and neck are unparalleled in my experience with MTM and RTW, and perhaps my mind's playing tricks on me, but it seems to be molding itself to my body already. I had been wearing that suit all day, from my drive to the airport, my hour-long flight in the morning, a half-hour BART ride, and an hour-long lunch with Matt --- the jacket was removed just for airport security, but otherwise was worn buttoned the whole way.
But the real reason I posted is because I want to talk about Matt's beautiful suit. We were meeting in front of Neiman-Marcus in Union Square, and from a block away, you could tell the suit was already something very special. As you get closer, the suit fairly screams "Custom!", but not in an ostentatious, aggressive way a Borrelli with its in-your-face pickstitching and exaggerated shape might do it. The detailing was interesting: patch pockets, swelled seams, and spalla camicia, but it was the shape and the drape of the suit that really gave it away. It's like it has a complex life of its own with all its small, nuanced undulations in the coat, possessing a kind of quiet exuberance. Several times during lunch I had to apologize to Matt because I found myself mesmerized by the way the shoulder fell, or a shape the sleevehead made, or some other wonderful little detail you may discover only after living with the suit for a while, and catching your reflection accidentally.
I don't mean to make it sound like the suit was wearing Matt, because it wasn't, but the two combined had a presence that's hard to see in a picture: it's really a 3D effect that you have to see in person to appreciate. Who needs a power suit's overtly shaped shoulders and clean chest, when you can get such a more subtle, elegant, but equally present, effect with drape? After seeing the suit, I'm completely spoiled now, and I understand the appeal of drape. Normal suits are nice, but not terribly interesting anymore.
--Andre
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