Odd waistcoat: buff, suede?

[couch]

Thanks, friends (if I may), for such a lively response and discussion. You've stimulated far more thoughts than I could possibly share without delaying the conversation, which I'd rather hear more of. So a few responses, and then the port is with you, sirs:

Alden: Thank you. On cut, linen, and formality of ensembles, you have confirmed my intentions. I'll reframe the Robin Hood question at the end.

On conspicuousness of white/cream/buff vest with suit: This can be inflected. The Fellows fellow is wearing darker shirt and contrast collar, which could easily be toned down. Will: I had the Beau's cream/buff/white waistcoats, white shirts, and white neckcloths with navy coats also in mind in my original musings, a combination which reduces the number of strong contrasts, as Alden enjoins. As Manton and Dopey have shown, we don't hesitate to pair a knit odd vest with an appropriate suit, so managing the color and texture is not really an obstacle. It just requires throught and taste.

On conservative/dandy and occasions for wear: Dopey, you're right that what's "conservative" has a short cultural shelf life. If, at 51, my "time has come" as Alden puts it, it's only because the life-or-death fashion upheavals (in ideas and clothes) that preoccupy my young colleagues seem minor and predictable oscillations to me (I contend this simply makes me a true postmodernist). So I know that bespeaking and wearing a buff odd waistcoat risks "weirdness." So be it. I'm concerned to understand the logic of historical precedent, be sure of the underlying aesthetic principles and my own zone of social comfort, and then act deliberately. I'm fortunate in that my overlapping careers create a variety of settings, and since two of them involve universities and one involves IT, there's quite a bit of tolerance of sartorial unpredictability and variety. As an aside, last winter I had occasion to deliver a talk in a session on "the use of source texts in contemporary experimental poetry" at MLA. Readers of David Lodge's book _Small World_ will easily picture the scene. It was fun to apply a Lounge-ish sensibility to dressing in a vocabulary intelligible in that context. But that's a story for another time.

What's relevant here is that people like Flusser bemoan today's lack of "fashion leaders" like Windsor and Grant. Well, if not us, who? Don't get me wrong--I'm not claiming particular power or prestige, but I'd wager any of my interlocutors on this thread are at least as capable of truly stylish rule-rewriting as the Duke. I aspire to that degree of understanding, and in my case don't much care if anyone is following.

On Robin Hood: Perhaps I expressed myself poorly in my first post. In my original thought experiment, I was picturing a thin supple suede, not something stiff or rugged--no Cromwellian buff coat, or Errol Flynn jerkin. I looked at a lot of Regency clothes at the Costume Museum in Bath in June, and I could swear I saw at least one waistcoat with pale buff suede fronts (probably a sueded deerskin), elegantly sewn. I may be misremembering and have only seen this material on breeches there, while the waistcoats were in cloth of that color, but in either case it still seems to me it could be made up quite elegantly into a garment that meets Alden's criteria for color, patina, texture, and casual/country flavor. Worn in the right ensemble I'm convinced it could be both understated and handsome. I have a buttery russet lambsuede outerwear vest with quilt stitching and cream cashmere lining that I love, and I imagine an equivalent weight suede in cream or buff would be quite suitable for a tailored waistcoat, if indeed not almost too delicate. I would speculate (corrections welcome) that the doeskin used commonly for waistcoats is named for a finish similar to a finely sueded deerskin, so this may be an old idea. But it will be moot in any case if I can't source the suede or find a skilled waistcoat tailor who can also sew it. Pointers still welcome.

Meanwhile you've convinced me to venture the linen. I expect to have the LL tweed made up starting in spring or summer, and I'll pick a linen to complement its cream thread and have it made concurrently. With any luck, by the time that project is done I'll have a decent digital camera.

Manton, perhaps at that point we could hold an East Coast "Odd vest luncheon" at which members could wear their linen and newly commissioned LL knit vests.

Cheers,
Randall

[manton]

I was wrong about the caption. Here is what it actually says:

"London Manner for Sprintime In Paris

"May 1936. Anthony Eden has exerted an enormous influence on continental fashions this year, as witness this turnout featuring such characteristic Eden touches as the black Homburg worn with a white linen waistcoat and white gloves. To American eyes the effect is somewhat dandified, but the Continent is always fertile ground for the dandy manner. The suit is of flannel with a faint blue overplaid. The shirt is of fine batiste with a white laundered collar, the specialty of a famous Paris shirt maker. The large knot foulard bow is a typical French shape which has gained London acceptance. The sack wrist gloves are light-weight white pigskin. Americanization of this outfit may involve dispensing with the white gloves and the rattan stick and substituting a soft felt hat or a straw hat for the Homburg. But the combination above is not too extreme for Metropolitan acceptance."

[alden]

Elegant would be correct, but is a diversion for these purposes.

Conventions are a moving target and as such provide a foundation of sand. Elegance is the foundation of stone, for the man who is dressed elegantly is never conspicuous, has more substance than beauty and is instantly accepted by the most conventional of spirits.

Would you notice the wearer? If so, for his bearing? for his clothes? for his indeterminate self? Would you notice the vest or does it blend into the entire appearance?

The man makes the clothes! If a man is weak spirited wearing dashing clothes, the clothes will overpower him and he will veer towards the ridiculous. If he has magnetism and taste, the clothes will follow the master with the docility of a newborn thoroughbred romping in the fields. The vision of this man will appear natural and self-evident despite the fact that the individual elements of his dress may include pieces that inspire curiosity and awe. The elements of his dress will form the organic whole that I have often written about; the unified result will leave novices saying things like “he can pull it off” or “I don’t know how or why, but it works, it works.”

Consider this, the white linen vest in particular, worn today. Is it conservative, progressive, reactionary? Is it dandy? Is it fashionable? Is it peahen or peacock? Modest or proud?

If its elegant its all of the above and none of the above.

[Costi]

substance

I quote this word from the context of Mr. Alden’s excellent post (because I want to root my ideas there), but I deliberately take it out of context and quote it all by itself, to let the reader’s mind associate it with its most profound meanings.
A strong character, a naturally dignified posture and a pair of piercing eyes may be too intimidating and create the impression of an unapproachable person; an elegant man with such atributes may choose to wear a buff vest with a grey suit to soften his look and counter such a perception, revealing that he has more phantasty and is more open to communication than his somber looks may suggest. He will wear it well, maintaining the balance of elegance, without either embarassment (as someone who likes the idea of the odd vest, but is not comfortable when others look at him) or affectation (as someone who wants to catch the eye of the others with an unusual item, who will look like he’s showing it off). The buff vest does not appear as a whim in this case, but as a well-thought message. It helps express the wearer’s substance.
But then who gives SO much thought to the way he dresses, and who has the time to read such codes?...

[Will]

"Consider this, the white linen vest in particular, worn today. Is it conservative, progressive, reactionary? Is it dandy? Is it fashionable? Is it peahen or peacock? Modest or proud?"

I doubt I would wear a cream vest with that suit unless it was a purely social occasion. The fault is less the vest, in my opinion, and more the suit.

[couch]

The new online issue of Savile Row Style has a photo of Ron Pescod in a buff (linen? doeskin?) odd waistcoat. Not the best resolution photo, but I thought it might interest members as an example of a more relaxed application than most we've discussed here:

http://www.savilerow-style.com/page4.htm

[dopey]

Now for the embarrassing addendum. I just recalled that I do have a pearl colored knit vest of silk and wool. I wore it on more than one occasion last year with a navy suit cut like the one in the Eden illustration and with a muted gray glen plaid with light blue overcheck DB suit.

Next time I will remind myself that I don’t feel comfortable with a light colored odd vest.

Now for the doubly embarrassing addendum. I forgot that I have a very light grey (dove-grey?) waistcoat with flapped lower pockets (no upper pockets) and sewn peak lapels. It was made to go with a medium gray peak lapel lounge suit, to suggest formal morning wear without being formal morning wear. I wore it yesterday with said suitcoat and a pair of winter-white flannels.

Apparently, a light-colored odd waistcoat is perfectly fine with me in practice but is “a bridge too far” in principle.

Henceforth, I will refrain from offering my opinion until I verify what it is.

[Cantabrigian]

How would it be to have a wardrobe so large that you literally could not remember everything you had?

[dopey]

How would it be to have a wardrobe so large that you literally could not remember everything you had?

I am sure you are aware that your remark is dependent on certain assumptions, about my memory, for example, that may be unfounded.

[edhayes]

I've never met a man who posts on this site who was not well mannered and graceful in his carriage and speech. A pleasing manner goes with a lot more clothing choices then ostentation.
Personally, I think an odd waistcoat is terrific under some circumtances. I just don't see ones I like very often, sweater vests are easier to find. I used to love the yellow ones with leather or mother of pearl buttons. I dont' see them around anymore. I'd love to see a LL vest but where woudl we get it from?