Proper Shirt Fit

[Guest]

I have a few bespoke shirt fit questions but I'll start with this:

Presently, I feel that my shirt sleeves are too short because when sitting at a desk with arms bent, for example, the cuff pulls back quite a bit, ending about 1"-1.5" away from the wrist joint.

Should the sleeve length be such that even when arms are bent , cuff ends at the wrist joint?

[Guest]

I
Should the sleeve length be such that even when arms are bent , cuff ends at the wrist joint?

Yes

[Guest]

I agree - but then the cuff should fit quite snugly around the wrist, to keep it from sliding further down when the arm hangs naturally.
However there is also the school of thought according to which the cuff should fit more loosely around the wrist and the sleeve is to be cut at the exact length of the arm (cuff hanging right at the wrist joint); in this case, as soon as you move your arms in any direction, the shirt's cuffs tend to disappear beneath the coat's sleeves...
C

[Guest]

I think that you do want the sleeve to end at the wrist bone, even when bending the arm.

All of my RTW shirts are wrong in this respect: either too short or too long. And never tight enough in the cuff either.

I think that a tight cuff is important when wearing a shirt with long sleeves that are cut to fall substantially below the wrist bone; obviously, when standing, you don't want the shirt cuff to slip down past the wrist bone, hence the tight cuffs to prevent that.

Alternatively, I guess that if the sleeve is cut wide enough in the elbow so that when bending the arm the cuff would not be pulled up too far, also works; I think that the sleeve when cut this way with a wide elbow allowance, wouldn't have to be cut very long and so, would not fall much beyond the wrist bone. But still I think that you want a tight and narrow cuff for a neat appearance.

Curiously, with suit coats, I also find that when bending the arm, some sleeves ride up high while others more or less stay in place, close to wrist. I suppose that this is a function of how wide the coat sleeve is cut in the elbow; if cut wide enough, it provides that extra allowance of cloth so that the sleeve does not ride up so much with bent arm.

I guess that this sleeve treatment could be considered another aspect of the 'comfort' of a more loosely, draped style cut coat.

uppercase

[Guest]

1. Collar point. Do we want the collar points to always be hidden under the coat lapels?

2. Collar band. What considerations are there in designing a collar to ensure that the tie lies tight and snug in the "V" of the collar, such that no collar band shows above the tie knot?

[Guest]

Unless you are wearing a tab collar or pin collar the points must be covered by the lapels.

[Guest]

1. Collar point. The points on most shirts that I observe do not infact hide behind the coat lapel although I agree that they should.

On most straight point collars and indeed many spread collars, the points do show.

The English for example cut their spread collars quite short and so, points often show.

I find that the points of exaggerated Italian spread collars, which initially appear quite long, actually do ensure that the points stay hidden behind the lapels and provide the neatest solution to this issue. This style collar may appear excessive when seen without a coat, but once the coat is on, the collar is very elegant and neat.


2. Collar band. Again, it is very common to observe the collar band peaking out above the tie. It is a vexing problem which causes a sloppy appearence.

Flusser would say that there should be NO tie space on the ideal shirt collar and that no space should between the edges of the collar meeting at the throat.

Also the shape and width of the tie must be appropriate to the shape and size of the shirt collar to avoid the dreaded gaping collar band above the tie.

I would add that to address this problem, collars need to be customized to fit quite snugly.

Also, certain tie silks seem to 'grip' the collar and hold a knot better than others.

Certain knots, such as the half windsor ,also seem to hold a knot up high and tight throughout the day, as opposed to the four in hand which, to me, regularly slips down.

Some shirt makers will place a material on the inside back of the collar to help hold the tie in place.

Apart from the above, other matters to consider when designing a collar to help avoid the gap are using a second button on the collar band; also cutting the collar band in a dramatic "V" at the point where edges of the collar meet at the throat can help.

Some collars and ties can be a joy, others a burden and the art of successfully cinching the tie up into a neat, elegant collar to form a harmonious appearance which holds throughout the day, is indeed rare.


uppercase

[Guest]

Any idea why tie pins and tie bars, primarily designed to keep the knot in place (by fixing the layers together, in the former case, respectively by taking the weight of the tie off the knot in the latter case), are so rarely used these days?

[Guest]

I also want to try a pinned collar but it is not used in London, for example.

It seems to be an American style.

I had a shirt made with collar designed for a pin but could not find a pin in Jermyn St. to save my life.

I was told to go to NYC....!

But indeed, it seems as if the pin would support, and hold up the tie knot and help avoid the gap..... I will find out once I can find a pin!

As to how to make the tie knot arch outward......well, that is still a mystery to me.

uppercase

[Guest]

You may want to try the Pratt knot [url]http:
//www.tie-a-tie.net/pratt.html[/url]
It fills the V of the collar very well (it is a wider knot), never slips down, never loosens, never gaps. Ideal with spread collars. Can be done even with a shorter tie, unlike a Windsor, for instance.
I was actually thinking of TIE pins - the kind that pierces the knot, maybe with a pearl at one end - rather than a collar pin.
Costi

[Guest]

Thanks for that.

I am familiar with the Pratt but have never used it during a business day; I will try it.

The tie pin is indeed beautiful and I recently saw a photo of Pr. Philip wearing one and was quite taken by its elegant appearance.

I am not sure about the suitability of tie pin for daily and business use; Pr. Philip was wearing his at an official ceremony.

Nevertheless, I could easily see wearing the tie pin in the evening or at any elegant occassion.

Use of these accessories really elevates the level of dress and elegance.

uppercase

[Guest]

Tie pins were far more popular in the past. In fact, an ascot (also known as a plastron in Europe) cannot be worn without one, and neither can the type of tie or ascot still used in equestrian / hunting dress today. Very few men wearing formal or business dress ventured out without a pearl tie pin or collar pin before WWII.

Today, male jewelry other than cufflinks is always in danger to appear somewhat ostentatious. As a consequence, it should be as simple, unpretentious and genuinely valuable as possible. Otherwise, the risk of pretentiousness is too great. Times change, alas. After all, when did you last see anybody wearing hat, stick and gloves. Elegant, maybe, but definitely history.

TVD

[Guest]

Right as always, TVD. I think there is a difference between “pure” jewellry (rings, earrings - God forbid!, bracelets, necklaces) and functional items which are considered jewellry on account of their beauty.
While the wide use of cars and public means of transportation has considerably diminished the need to wear gloves and hat, and while the stick was always an element of style with no function whatsoever - other items (cufflinks, tie pins, tie bars) have a precise function and Ifind it hard to understand why some of them have gone out of use : the need they address is still there (e.g. to fix a tie knot) and they have not been replaced with anything else; then why do they have such a hard time coming back into use?
After all, a tie pin is no more a piece of jewellry than a wristwatch, because they are both primarily functional objects. I can see why it would look flamboyant to wear a heavy gold chain in your lapel buttonhole, now that pocket watches are antiquities - but why not a discrete tie pin to hold the tie knot in place?...
C

[Guest]

I don’t wear a tie pin and don’t plan to, but I think the effect is somewhat like a new haircut. You will be far more likely to be conscious of your tiepin than will anyone else. If I saw someone wearing a simple one, I would probably register it for a second and then forget about it.

[Guest]

Tried the Pratt knot today and it worked very well: no slippage and stayed in place all day long. It more or less successfully filled the tie space, hiding the collar band, on a moderate spread Italian style collar. Great!

Plus, it seems to make a smaller knot than the half windsor and use less material in the making which is good if RTW ties come up a bit short at the waist.

Tomorrow will try its cousin, the Nicky.