Surgeon's Cuffs

[exigent]

Good points all. Interesting to note that the English fellows value understatement, though it is not surprising, if a person knows something of the culture in that beautiful country. Dan's comment is most appropriate, however, since we live in a world of steadily declining standards combined with freely available information, a kind of odd contradiction in terms. I clapped eyes on Men's Health magazine at the book store yesterday (the cover blared something about Style Icons, which caught my eye). Turns out these folks believe that a guy by the name of Patrick Dempsey is a style icon. I had never heard of the actor before, but then it is likely that my own pop-culture deficiencies are to blame for this blissful ignorance. Dan is right that most of the persons one runs across these days wouldn't know bespoke from well-fitted RTW. So if a fellow wants to mess around with his sleeves buttons, well, that's all right with me. But I do subscribe to the solid theory that one is on occasion judged harshly by one's peers for this sort of mild faux pas. Important to analyze your environment correctly....

If it makes you feel better, Jack, I never heard of Patrick Dempsey either! Jack, yeah. In fact, I named my present Tosa (Japanese Fighting Dog) " Dempsey." Yesterday evening a fellow was admiring my dog and asked his name. I said, "Dempsey, as in Jack Dempsey." He said, "Wasn't he a football player?" Ah, the ephemeral nature of fame!

I too checked out that issue of Men's Health after hearing it praised on Style Forum. It didn't look like anything I wanted to spend my money on.

I can recall asking one of the longtime salesmen at the Polo Shop in South Coast Plaza whether he thought unbuttoning sleeve buttons was the privilege of a bespoke (or high end MTM) wearer or sort of a twit thing. He replied, "Twit." Not long ago, I saw him in the shop with all the buttons of his blazer undone and the cuff rolled up. I couldn't resist twitting him about being a twit. He remarked that it was all right within the confines of the shop (I don't know why). To match him I undid my sleeve buttons and rolled up my cuffs, just joking around. As soon as I left the Polo Shop, I buttoned my sleeve buttons properly and kept them that way!

You know it's funny, Jan, how rules designed to be stretched by knowledgeable persons are instead routinely blown apart by didactic twits for whom convenience...rules. The guy in question gave you the kind of arch, stock answer that has little to do with genuine principle: instead, at the time of his earlier certitude, he was likely paroting something he had heard from a more credible source. We both know that even "long serving" modern sales persons know very little of the rules that guide fellows like ourselves. And Polo stores offer serial offenders nonpareil, because the brand itself is an homage to the real things that we love so much, which carries its representatives one step farther away from the truth (the mansion in New York is well worth visiting, mind, but let's be plain about this stuff). Your experience with the salesman in question is typical of the sort of muddled rubbish that greets so many of us at every turn. I do what I want with sleeve buttons, but environment dictates my presentation always. A fellow doesn't turn up for a meeting with conservative peers with his sleeve buttons undone. Unless he wants to be judged the sort of flashy, fly-by-night boob in whom one invests little confidence, that is....

[TVD]

Leaving arrangements untill too late, I was left at a loose end on Saturday night and ended up dining by myself at Cipriani (London - I wish it were Venice). A few tables away two American couples sat down for dinner. The combinbation of the setting (not popular with Englishmen) and the tweed(ish) jackets, dark trouser, end on end blue shirt with white collar and cuffs and brick red tie suggested US to me.

Anyway, one jacket was perfect. Yellowish tan houndstooth ground with a red plaid check, scarlet lining. Very lightweight cloth, extremely soft shoulder with some padding, the back fitted like a glove, the collar not moving away from the neck at all.

It was worn with the cuff buttons open and managed to look marvellous despite this affront. I was tempted to ask who made it, but then decided it would be bad manners.

So if your tailor is this good, you can do whatever you want with your cuffs.

[friism]

Nicolas Sarkozy has an opinion on the matter of unbuttoning ones jacket cuff...:
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/d ... id=6772462
(Those who have the print edition can enjoy the picture with the microphone edited out)

[Arpey]

But what is the "take" on surgeon cuffs?
Are they an interesting detail or a distraction on a bespoke suit?
Are they fashion or do they have a place in today's classic menswear?
And is it worth giving thought to having such cuff treatment on a suit?

A functionless affectation.

[Manself]

A salesman in Hackett, who was selling me my first RTW suit - a navy needle corduroy number with working cuff buttons - told me, with a straight face, that if I undid one or two cuff buttons before entering a restaurant the waiters would notice and I would receive an improved level of service. I was at a loss as to how to reply to such a ridiculous claim.

My tailor, however, does sport surgeon's cuffs on some of his suits, but it doesn't look right to my untutored eye.

[BirdofSydney]

I note with distaste that (machine-stitched) buttonholes on sleeves are becoming de rigeur amongst RTW manufacturers trying to create an impression of "value-adding". Likewise bad pick-stitching and (often sham) ticket pockets.

For my money, only one of the three has visual appeal when done properly. As well as the structural benefits, proper pick stitching really does look lovely. Sleeve buttons are fairly neutral in my opinion - if well done they are nice, but so subtle that they might not be worth the effort and expense. To say that they are necessary for a good suit is chicanery or snobbery - Messrs. Anderson and Sheppard would beg to differ, I'm sure.

I do feel that unbuttoning them is show-offy, an attempt to draw attention to the expensiveness of your suit (although really you can have it added to any suit, and see above). What's more, if it is the cuff that's drawing the eye more than anything else, there's a problem already.

I'm by no means anti-buttonholes. If you like them, and especially if your tailor includes them as standard, there's no reason not to want them. For me, I shall wait until perhaps I fulfil my ambition to play in a jazz band...for I do worry that my sleeve buttons might then get caught in my instrument, and it seems appropriately insouciant to sport rolled-up sleeves.

All the best,

Eden

[Mulberrywood]

Wearing bespoke clothes is a rare pleasure. Do what you like.

I totally subscribe to your view!

I will third that.

[couch]

BirdofSydney's remarks about sham pockets and pick stitching prompt a general reflection on the aesthetic value of features that might be considered "vestigial."

Why would sham sleeve buttonholes be comme il faut if sham pockets are not? For that matter, why have nonfunctional sleeve buttons at all? One could make a persuasive argument about the intrinsic value of decorative detail, but I'm inclining to the view that elegance in dress requires a kind of visual honesty or lack of pretense.

Following this line, all features would either be capable of serving their designed function, even if infrequently called upon to do so, or removed altogether. A lapel buttonhole would be available for a boutonniere or the rosette of one's decorations. A cash pocket would be ready to hold tickets or tolls. Sleeve buttons and their holes would operate or not appear.

Stylistic conventions would challenge this principle in some areas. Some modern lapel shapes would probably flounder if called upon to turn up and latch at the throat, even though the turned-back lapel presumably originated from a degage manner of wearing a garment that could fully button up. The wide-set top buttons of some DB styles could not close. According to this principle, the lowest button of a waistcoat would be aligned with the others, rather than offset, even though it was left unfastened by convention. Waistcoat lapels would continue into collars, rather than being stitched down at shoulder seams.

It could be an invigorating project for the enthusiast and his tailor to design elegant solutions to such challenges according to the general principle. Rather than primarily signifying expense, structural details would then signify a consistency of purpose. This of course would leave scope for frankly decorative decisions in terms of materials, line, and accessories. What do you think?

The SR penchant for "two real and two sham" sleeve buttonholes to permit alteration has a purpose, but not one intrinsic to the garment's function. On my last suit (which has other problems, as several NY members know) I'd initially requested four functional sleeve buttons. The finished jacket came back with two hand-stitiched real and two machine-stitched sham. The finish looked completely different and was apparent at conversational distance to any careful observer. To me, this looked quite cheesy, to use a technical term. I sent the jacket back and that problem, at least, was beautifully corrected.

[RWS]

. . . . elegance in dress requires a kind of visual honesty or lack of pretense. . . .

Amen!

[Outrigger]

On the subject of lengthening sleeves. Once the sleeves have been altered, is there any sign that there were sham button holes on the cuff in the first place? I mean how well can a tailor unpick the sham button holes? To my way of thinking there would be a scare left behind, which would spoil the cuff.

[manton]

Occasionally, the removal of sham buttonholes does leave a scar. The more loosely woven the cloth, the more likely this will happen. Also, woolen yarns are more likely to show scars than worsted yarns. However, scarring can be repaired by a reweaver, who can make the sleeve look good as new.

[BirdofSydney]

BirdofSydney's remarks about sham pockets and pick stitching prompt a general reflection on the aesthetic value of features that might be considered "vestigial."

Sir, I'm glad that I've been able to stimulate your thoughts! I'm not precisely certain of whether we, in fact, agree or disagree. I shall, instead, offer a couple more reflections:

First of all, and this a classic, why the bottom button on a 2 or 3 button jacket, if it will never be buttoned? My answer to this question is hopefully a self-evident one. It creates visual balance, especially when the coat is unbuttoned. I myself am a fan of the Kilgour-style one button, but I know most people are not, and I understand why.

Secondly, I realised just today that I myself am actually quite averse to making use of most of the external pockets on my suits at all! On my newest Zegna suit, the fabric and construction are so delicate that it bulges very easily. As such, I've left the outer jacket pockets stitched shut (not the breast pocket of course). I may change my attitude over time as the suit wears in, and perhaps is relegated to second-line duties. But, is there a fundemental difference between this and sham ticket pockets? I would say yes, as the latter is a stylistic extra with a purely functional history. Side pockets are an integral part of the outfit. One leaves one's jetted Dinner Jacket pockets closed, but noone thinks they're silly for being there. The same is true of sleeve buttons, indeed the same is true of lapels. Not always strictly functional, but traditional and attractive.

In that vein, horror of horrors, I spotted a picture of a notch-lapelled, flap-pocketed DJ by Armani (of course), that actually had a ticket pocket! For the next time one takes the train to their black-tie ball?

I'm yet to reply with my thoughts on Couch's dissertation, but I promise I shall do so soon!

All the best,

Eden

P.S. This didn't quite fit in the flow of the above post, but I must say I love the idea of a single sleeve button on non-suit jackets. I've seen it at both ends of the spectrum, on sportscoats but also on DJs. Any thoughts?

[Leonard Logsdail]

A well-cut, well-made and good fitting suit does not need a cuff hole left unbuttoned to showit such. It speaks for itself. Only those with a low self esteem or with a suit they know to be inferior would bother to leave their cuffs unbuttoned.

It's the knowing you can!!!

Leonard

[Leonard Logsdail]

I need to apologize ifI came across as arogant in my last post. I can be like this sometimes.

Leonard

[Concordia]

I need to apologize if came across as arrogant in my last post. I can be like this sometimes.

Leonard

No worries, if you're always this correct!