Church's decline

[SouthPender]

Arpey and Tortured-sole: You seem to feel that Church's shoes remain high-quality, and yet you (Tortured-sole) acknowledge that they are overpriced. From the websites I have seen, Church's oxfords and derbys tend to run in the 280-310 GBP range. These are shoes--many of which are, in fact, made of corrected-grain leather (this is not "nonsense," Tortured-sole, but fact)--that are stitched aloft and correspond roughly in apparent quality to Crockett & Jones regular-grade shoes and Grenson Footmasters. Yet the latter can be purchased for approximately 80 GBP less. In addition, for 320 GBP, one can purchase C&J Handgrades directly from C&J. (In none of the prices cited have I removed VAT.) So, for approximately 20 GBP more than the price of a pair of Church's shoes, one could instead have C&J Handgrades. Given this fact--and, perhaps more compellingly, the fact that the equally-good, if not better, regular-grade C&Js can be had for some 80 GBP less--why would anyone buy Church's shoes? The fact that EG and JLobb may have used corrected-grain leather at some time in the past (and I'd like to see this confirmed since it is so inconsistent with the quality-level of these makers) seems to me to be completely irrelevant to the question of relative quality of current-production shoes.

Brand loyalty is a curious phenomenon. Perhaps what we have here is an instance of cognitive dissonance operating to convince recent purchasers of Church's shoes that they didn't make a mistake! Given the very widespread dissatisfaction among savvy shoe buyers vis-a-vis Church's shoes these days, however, it's pretty hard to imagine that there's no fire producing all that smoke.

As for corrected-grain leather, calliing it "Bookbinder" doesn't make it any better, and, except perhaps for black (in which its flat, lifeless appearance is less noticeable), it is just plain inferior to full-grain leather, all other things being equal. It's true that C&J do have a model or two made with corrected-grain leather. In the current catalog, the Lanark, a plain-toe derby, is shown as being of "Cavalry" calf (not "calvary," Arpey, although it could be argued that they should be crucified for using it!), and notably, it is in black, where the offence is least noticed. It does appear, then, that the proportion of Church's shoes made of this manifestly second-rate product is higher than for C&J, yet the prices remain approximately 35% higher. No wonder people are talking about the decline in these shoes.

[manton]

My experience with Church is pretty much identical to Dopey's. I have one remaining pair of "real cape buck" (in my case punch caps) that are more than a dozen years old. There is a small cut in the vamp that I assume will only get worse. I will be sad when they die, but the end is nigh.

[Arpey]

Re: Arpey and Tortured-sole: You seem to feel that Church's shoes remain high-quality, and yet you (Tortured-sole) acknowledge that they are overpriced. ...
Here in the States, the reliable suppliers for C&J's that I have found are at Ben Silver located in Charleston & ordered through a catalogue, and at T&A in NYC. (If anyone knows of any other retailers please advise since we are looking for a particular style for my wife, as C&J is one of the rare manufacturers that makes an attractive woman’s welted shoe.) On the other hand Church’s has stores in NYC, DC & Houston that I frequent. I especially like the service in DC.
I find the prices of Church’s & C&J comparable. And with the twice annual sale for Church’s the price points often tip in their favor.

Re: ... is shown as being of "Cavalry" calf (not "calvary," Arpey, although it could be argued that they should be crucified for using it!)
Let’s not get sanctimonious over a typo mistake, my friend, casting the first stone and all of that sort of stuff.

Re: I believe Church’s greatest mistake was to change from last 73 (their default last for many years) to last 100. The 100 with its bulbous toe box, is incredibly ugly.
Taste is all in the eye of the beholder. I have two pairs of shoes on the 100 last; A pair of Cowes which is the double buckle monk strap with a cap toe and a pair of Tasmania which is a reverse welt Chukka boot. To my eye they appear sleek. I also especially like the 108 last.

Re: As for corrected-grain leather, calliing it "Bookbinder" doesn't make it any better, and, except perhaps for black (in which its flat, lifeless appearance is less noticeable), it is just plain inferior to full-grain leather, all other things being equal.
Again, taste is all in the eye of the beholder. I enjoy my pair of Bookbinder Kews.

Re: I find this passage interesting. Can you describe the financial difficulties experienced by EG, particularly with respect to how these may be related to present changes (price increase, departures of Tony Gaziano and Susie Jones)?
Sorry, no I cannot. The Robb report article was printed prior to the current departures. In years past I have had retailers tell me that their financial concerns had affected them at various points in time.

[SouthPender]

[quote="Arpey"]Here in the States, the reliable suppliers for C&J's that I have found are at Ben Silver located in Charleston & ordered through a catalogue, and at T&A in NYC. (If anyone knows of any other retailers please advise since we are looking for a particular style for my wife, as C&J is one of the rare manufacturers that makes an attractive woman’s welted shoe.) On the other hand Church’s has stores in NYC, DC & Houston that I frequent. I especially like the service in DC. I find the prices of Church’s & C&J comparable. And with the twice annual sale for Church’s the price points often tip in their favor.

Not living in the US, I cannot advise on this point. From a number of posts on another forum, however, it seems clear that there are retailers in many other US cities than those you note that carry C&J shoes. In addition, have you considered Pediwear and, particularly, PLal for your own shoes? You could purchase C&J Handgrades from PLal (at any time, not just on sale) for considerably less ($400 US and very inexpensive shipping) than you currently pay for Church's, even buying the latter from online suppliers like Herring Shoes (where you'll pay about $470 US plus shipping). It's difficult to envisage anyone on this forum not seeing Handgrades as superior to Church's shoes.

[quote="Arpey"]Let’s not get sanctimonious over a typo mistake, my friend, casting the first stone and all of that sort of stuff.

Hardly sanctimonious, Arpey, merely taking advantage of an opportunity for a small joke and nothing more. I do make typos too!

Re: As for corrected-grain leather, calliing it "Bookbinder" doesn't make it any better, and, except perhaps for black (in which its flat, lifeless appearance is less noticeable), it is just plain inferior to full-grain leather, all other things being equal.

[quote="Arpey"]Again, taste is all in the eye of the beholder. I enjoy my pair of Bookbinder Kews.

Glad you like your corrected-grain shoes (that is, after all, the important thing, isn't it), and I'm sure they are very nice. As noted, since they are in black, the esthetic flaws of this kind of leather will be least noticeable. I have to wonder, however, whether you would feel the same way about these shoes had they been tan or burgundy and had absolutely no depth to the finish and no chance of a patina ever developing. Although beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, I wonder how many beholders would choose such a leather appearance over one that had depth. I do think that it is a legitimate criticism of Church's shoes that they use corrected-grain leather to the extent that they do--at the same time as charging higher prices than other makers who make equally well-constructed shoes but with full-grain leather.

A properly-finished shoe in full-grain leather has the finish developed via a dye at first which still reveals the grain structure, followed by successive applications of polish and waxes that build up the finish to a shine and smooth surface. Such a finish is in the leather, rather than merely on it; it has depth to it and actually improves over time--with proper care and maintenance--as a patina forms.

In contrast corrected-grain leather is finished very differently. The leather is first sanded down to remove imperfections. It is then colored and finished by means of a thick opaque colored paste that is driven into the surface of the leather by rollers--involving heat and pressure--with the result being a shiny finish on the surface. Not surprisingly, such a finish doesn't benefit from creams and not much from polishing, since it is pretty well impervious and will always be shiny. It will be on the surface, rather than in the leather,and will look as though the leather had been painted, since the process is not that much different from a pressure/heat paint application. This is a quick and cheap process and allows the use of inferior leather to begin with.

I for one wouldn't want shoes finished that way at any price, let alone Church's prices! I too have had the same impression as others about a decline in Church's quality and am not surprised by Dopey's and Manton's experiences with shoes bought in the past. Twenty years ago, Church's shoes were available in Vancouver (although I never bought any), and they were considered excellent shoes. They were pricey and not to my tastes at that time, but I'm almost certain that they were all made from full-grain, high-quality leather. Others could perhaps confirm this. If, in fact, they were, and they are now--at least to some extent--made of corrected-grain leather, this has to be characterized as a decline in quality over the past however many years.

[Will]

Two small comments.

I have two remaining pair of Church's and once the exposed sole stitching wear through they will be gone from my closet.

Company financial statements are public record in the UK. I haven't purused EG's recently, however two years ago they reported a profit in excess of 1.6mm on sales of less than 5mm. I don't recall if the numbers were pounds or dollars but if there is financial stress on the company it was not apparent.

[Étienne]

Just a small additional bit of information.

There is another important dimension for quality: what are the stiffeners (in the back) and toe puffs made of? According to my shoemaker, Church's use thermoplastic toe puffs and thermoplastic or cardboard stiffeners. These are easier to work with but inferior to hard leather puffs. Thermoplastic is harder but will never evolve and mould itslef on the wearer's toe, as leather does with the years.

I cannot say for sure if Green, Weston, Lobb and the like still use leather toe puffs, nor when Church's switched to thermoplastic, so that this is not a sure sign of a recent decline. Still, I think that tidbit of information may be useful.

[lancepryor]

Green use a leather counter (the piece inside the shoe behind the heel), but a celastic (thermoplastic) toe puff. Don't know about the others, though most RTW shoemakers use the celastic/thermoplastic for both the counter and the toe puff.

The strength of the counter is important in maintaining the lines of the shoe, since the lengthwise tension created during lasting must be maintained and this requires stiffness against the tension on the part of the counter -- if the counter were not present, the heel of the shoe would collapse forward. Many feel that a solid piece of leather does this better than the thermoplastic alternatives, though the leather is more difficult to work with.

The function of the toe puff is to provide a bit of structure to the top of the toe, and to ensure that the toe of the shoe does not collapse when stepped upon. Celastic seems to do this effectively, though of course leather is the tradtional material for this application as well. In the custom bootmaking world I have read arguments about celastic vs. leather; the former is certainly faster and easier to work with, the latter appeals to those who are more concerned with tradition, a time-tested approach to shoemaking, and differentiating their product from RTW.[/code]

[Arpey]

Re: …In addition, have you considered Pediwear and, particularly, PLal for your own shoes? You could purchase C&J Handgrades from PLal … even buying the latter from online suppliers like Herring Shoes …
When first introduced to a given last, regardless of the manufacturer, I like to try on the shoes, noting the slight size variations in length and width. Only after a first purchase will I then order more on the same last through catalogue or by a telephone order. This is the reason that I have not purchased C&J’s heretofore from the retailers that you have mentioned.
It’s hard enough figuring the correct sizes when comparing Alden & AE on a given last. Then, considering the further quirkiness between the English and American sizing schemes for a given manufacturer, my hesitation in getting four pair of shoes sent to me so that I can keep one and return three is manifest.
Maybe during the summer I will stop in some Edinburgh shops to ascertain size although the shoe money is budgeted for a pair of Weston full hunt derbies while in Paris later in the year.

Re: I have to wonder, however, whether you would feel the same way about these shoes had they been tan or burgundy and had absolutely no depth to the finish and no chance of a patina ever developing.
I agree with you. I do not like the polished binder in shades of brown for the reason that you mention about patination. On the other hand I really do not care for the aged patina of black shoes. I enjoy the high shiny gloss of black Bookbinder, (and also black cordovan for that matter), and especially in the evening.

[dopey]

. . .although the shoe money is budgeted for a pair of Weston full hunt derbies while in Paris later in the year.

You have my envy. Those are nice shoes if you like that sort of thing, which I do.

[novice]

. . .although the shoe money is budgeted for a pair of Weston full hunt derbies while in Paris later in the year.

You have my envy. Those are nice shoes if you like that sort of thing, which I do.

The Weston Hunt Derby is indeed an impressive shoe, having a solid no-nonsense look. I am curious though about the flexibility in use, i.e., just what these shoes would pair up with?

[iammatt]

. . .although the shoe money is budgeted for a pair of Weston full hunt derbies while in Paris later in the year.

You have my envy. Those are nice shoes if you like that sort of thing, which I do.

The Weston Hunt Derby is indeed an impressive shoe, having a solid no-nonsense look. I am curious though about the flexibility in use, i.e., just what these shoes would pair up with?

Be forewarned that although my hunt derbies are a favorite pair of shoes, they are exceedingly loud on hard floors. I do not know if Weston offers them without the tap, but I find that I wear mine only outside or when travelling.

[Arpey]

Be forewarned that although my hunt derbies are a favorite pair of shoes, they are exceedingly loud on hard floors. I do not know if Weston offers them without the tap, but I find that I wear mine only outside or when travelling.

I was under the impression that the retail stores in Paris can switch out the metal taps for rubber ones. Please advise if I am wrong.

[Rowly]

I agree with the decline in quality of Church's shoes under Prada. I note the debate that Corrected grain and Bookbinder leathers are not considered suitable for bespoke shoes. Is there, then, a generic trade name quality of leather that is the best and most suitable for bespoke shoes, and what is this quality and where can it be obtained?...thanks, Rowly.