Hand Padding and Machine Padding of Collar and Labels

[Guest]

As many of you know, hand sewing of almost two thousand stitches in the collar and lapels is very labor intensive and is found only in bench made coats from bespoke tailors and in a handful of factory made ones (such as Kiton, Borrelli, and Oxxford).

However some reputable makers, such as Martin Greenfield and Adrian Jules, machine sew these areas. I assume that this is a cost saving practice. But is this a sacrifice in qualtiy.

Can some of our members discuss whether they have found a difference in machine versus hand padding.

Thanks.

[Guest]

Two thousand stitches in lapels and collars are, in my view, simply selling fluff. From a practical point of view, and to achieve a good roll on a lapel, you do not need this much work. It's overkill, pure and simple.

Machine stitched lapels and collars are cheaper and far less labor-intensive. They do, by and large, create a stiffer lapel and collar and do not achieve such a good roll through the lapel. And what roll they do achieve disappears with wear. But then, most suits with machine stitches are cheaper, (or should be) so you get what you pay for.

You can;t beat a well hand-padded and rolled lapel and collar. When done properly it's the best.


Leonard

[Guest]

From my experience, what Leonard says is (as expected) quite true. Some time ago I had a light-coloured, soft and hairy mohair cloth made into a sports jacket. For some unknown reason, the tailor to whom my cutter entrusted the sewing work did machine-stitching on the canvasses. When I tried the coat on, the stiff canvasses were pushing through the soft cloth everywhere (especially on the sides, around the waist) and it was simply unwearable. Unfortunately the buttonholes had already been cut and finished, so it was impossible to take everything out and redo the work. The cutter had to take the lining out, turn the coat inside out, carefully undo the machine stitching and, as much as possible, hand-sew the canvasses back. It did solve the problem (the canvasses protruding from beneath the cloth), but he couldn't do it everywhere (there is an 8-9 cm wide band going down the edge of both fronts, including lapels, which is still machine-sewn). The lapels are very difficult to work into shape, because the stiff canvassing tends to unaesthetically increase the radius of the roll - and to bring them to a more natural shape the only solution is to create a crease (not too pronounced) which clearly says "no roll here". The poor cutter actually had to work twice to mend the jacket (at least now it is wearable) and learned his lesson about using certain tailors.

[Guest]

I spoke to Mike Cohen, Oxxford's CEO, and he related the following:

The advantage of hand padding is that the tailor can allow for the curve of the neck and shoulders. When sewing he makes allowances for the curve. In comparison, machine sewn collars are sewn flat in bunches. A CMT house can purchase them ready made. .

On the lapels, hand sewing gives them a permanent roll. Again, machine sewn padding is sewn on a flat surface. In comparison, a tailor would work the roll with his hands.

Hand sewing lapels only takes about 1.25 to 1.30 hours. Machine sewing lapels takes 2 minutes.

[Guest]

Aside from the fact that either from the start or over time the machine padded lapel will be/become flat, are there any other disadvantages?

For example, will machine-made pad stitches tend to come loose faster than hand-done pad stitches?

[Guest]

I think that, on the contrary, the machine-made stitches are too tight compared to hand-made stitches - which causes the garment to be too stiff.

[Guest]

You know, I've got coats where I can see the hand stiching on the back of the lapels clearly and others where, for the life of me, I cannot find a stich at all.

I don't know if this is because the tailor (or RTW maker) scrimped on the stiching, didn't do any at all, or just used same-color thread. Umm....that's go me wondering....

BTW, I found a very interesting dart hidden under each lapel on some of my coats - extending from the collar down , at varying lengths , the underside of the lapel. Most of my coats don't have this at all.

Anyone know what this dart's function is and if it's common to most coats?

uppercase

[Guest]

[quote="uppercase"

BTW, I found a very interesting dart hidden under each lapel on some of my coats - extending from the collar down , at varying lengths , the underside of the lapel. Most of my coats don't have this at all.

Anyone know what this dart's function is and if it's common to most coats?

uppercase[/quote]

Uppercase:
I do not know the purpose of the dart, but from its shape and location I would surmise that it is to permit fullness and roundness in the chest. I would also surmise that it is one of several options available to a tailor to accomplish the same purpose.

An survey of the three different makers’ work I have hanging in my office yields Raphael:dart; Dege;dart Dunhill(1994): no dart

[Guest]

Due to the fact that tailors cut the fronts of a coat with the grain or design going down, the crease of the lapel is alsways on the bias of the cloth.

The cut under the lapel has two uses. Firstly it shortens the crease line a little so that, should stretching during making occur, it can be reduced. Secondly, and mainly, though, this cut is used on poeple who have a full chest. The prominence of their chest can cause the lapel to pull open. The cut underneath will (or should) stop this from happening by shortening the crease line and at the same time, much like the front dart on a jacket, throw a little fullness over the prominent part of the chest.

leonard

[Guest]

I once asked why my coats did not have said dart under the lapel. The cutters response suggested most politely that given my frame I would have to work out regularly and binge on proteins to qualify for this treatment.

[Guest]

Is it common to match a coat's front darts made in the cloth with a second set of darts made in the canvasing this time, in the same area?

[Guest]

Due to the fact that tailors cut the fronts of a coat with the grain or design going down, the crease of the lapel is alsways on the bias of the cloth.

The cut under the lapel has two uses. Firstly it shortens the crease line a little so that, should stretching during making occur, it can be reduced. Secondly, and mainly, though, this cut is used on poeple who have a full chest. The prominence of their chest can cause the lapel to pull open. The cut underneath will (or should) stop this from happening by shortening the crease line and at the same time, much like the front dart on a jacket, throw a little fullness over the prominent part of the chest.

leonard

Well, this is a very interesting technical lesson here.

Perhaps, the lack of a dart under the lapel explains why some of my lapels pull open.

I thought pullilng open of the lapels was a shoulder problem but now I'm enlightened.

I'm going to have try on my coats and examine them for which have darts under the lapel and which don't. And see which lapels fit more snugly over the chest and which don't...

BTW, how does a tailor correct the problem, once a jacket is made, of the lapels pulling open?

uppercase

[Guest]

Dear Uppercase,

The easiest way to solve the problem of a gaping lapel is to throw te coat away and have ne ones made!!!!!!!!!! Just joking.
The reason for a crease edge pulling away cannot be blamed soley on the dart under the lapel, or lack thereof. THe coat might be too straight ot too crooked. There just might not be sufficient fabric across the chestopf the coat, in which case no amount of tugging at the lapel will cure it.

This said, it is possible for a good tailor to go behind, or inside, a crease edge and to carefully add a stitch that will shorten the length of the lapel.

Hope tis helps.

Leonard

[Guest]

Thanks for that, Leonard.

I'm glad that I don't have to throw those coats out!

Having said that, either I don't seem to pick up on the problem in the tailor's shop, before taking delivery of the coat or the problem may not be there in beginnning.

But with time, on some coats, the lapel does lift off of the chest, always on the right side.

I wonder if this could be related to an old skiing injury to my right collar bone where it now protrudes a bit and the right shoulder is now a bit lower than the left...

In any case, I will return those few offending coats to the tailor to see what can be done.

I know that a good tailor always likes to take care of his creations after they leave the shop and I have had good experience with tailors fixing matters, and making minor adjustments, post sale.

BTW, I took a look at my coats and found that none of the RTW and MTM have that dart under the lapel. Of the bespoke coats, 75% do have the dart.

Again, one of the hidden details of a bespoke suit which the RTW just don't have.

uppercase