"strange customer"

[Leonard Logsdail]

Alex, you can write like this and make great shirts???!!!

Much of what Alex says I agree with. Reputations should be earned properly through hard work and not through simple PR. However, having said that, as a young 21 year old I wet my feet out of my own pocket, so to speak. In other words, when you work for yourself everything coms from, and goes to, your pocket. Not to someone else. This can, for a time, cause concern from those more established, but eventually the water settles and the men will be seperated from the boys in the bespoke business. This, it seems, is a matter of youth wanting to stretch it's wings and feels it's oats.

With respect to badmouthing anyone on the internet - it is so easy to look at a computer screen and be brave. In the respect of Hitchcocks posting - there is, often, a quiet word said to a friends ear so that a bad apple does not cause the havoc he may have at another store. I have a very poingnant story on this subject that I will not tell you here. There are, unfortunately, people who get their jollies by simply being difficult. However, there are often two sides to every story and sometimes we artisans can easily be upset by the most innocent of remarks. And, being mere humans, this needs to be weighed whenever we make a comment on another or they make a comment about us.

Leonard

[AlexanderKabbaz]

But in recent years, there has cropped up a band of young warriors. No such history to guide them. Many working out of their homes or using willing cloth merchants as bases of operation. Businesses built solely through the power of the internet. This must be checked. Coming here, grabbing the pot o' gold, and escaping to the safety of a legally non-binding land has got to be brought under control.

Let me expand upon this. What I said, "must be checked" and "must be brought under control" is literally what I meant to say. For those who garnered the impression that I am railing against either young tailors - or their right to ply their trade - I am not. Without the young, there is no future to the bespoke arts. Do I object to New York rather than London as their sales training ground? Yes, but only mildly. To put that in historic context, I had to "earn my stripes" in an out-of-the-way low rent district in the exhaust-filled atmosphere of the Midtown Tunnel entrance before I even dreamed of plying my trade in midtown Manhattan.

To use as a measure the problem I mentioned previously of Mr. Beaman, motivation may be mitigating but in the final analysis is unimportant. What is important is that well-meaning clients remain not only unsatisfied and out-of-pocket, but also sans economical recourse.

Must be checked? Must be brought under control? That is the crux of the matter. Mr. Alden's Certified Artisans Program is a wonderful example. The inherent problem is that it recognizes - for obvious reasons - only well-established artisans. In some manner, shape, or form, the awesome power of the internet now so widely used for publicity must also be harnessed to prevent these instances from recurring. There cannot be wholesale disregard for clients' rights to legal recourse even through the de facto abridgement of those rights created by the economic unreality of an international litigation. Even worse, as in the instant case, the 'check and balance' has gone so far as to be working in reverse! It is the client who is being hung out to dry.

I think it serves merely as a reminder to clients that getting a bespoke garment involves a relationship with the artisan and that there must be a decent degree of mutual understanding if that is to happen. If that's all Mahon was saying, would it be out of line?

No.

That said, I hope that they are both careful to not mention the name. While someone may not be deserving of a tailor's effort - and I do believe there are clients who are not - people would tend to assume the worst about that person generally and it would be rather unfair if his name were leaked.

The problem is that this is the internet. Once a subject is broached, the leak is inevitable. When - not if - the identity is leaked, the genie can never, ever be stuffed back in the bottle. Who is at fault will soon be forgotten. The aspersions of guilt will not.

It sounds as though you know more about the situation than those of us who have simply read englishcut.

This is immaterial. It is the concept with which I quarrel and not its particular manifestation in this or any other one instance.

[Concordia]

Since both of the artisans mentioned on the EnglishCut site are in fact well-established (and LL Certified), neither one appears to have identified this troublesome client except between themselves, and you have no special knowledge about the client's situation that you wish to share, then this is all kind of irrelevant, isn't it?

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Since both of the artisans mentioned on the EnglishCut site are in fact well-established (and LL Certified), neither one appears to have identified this troublesome client except between themselves, and you have no special knowledge about the client's situation that you wish to share, then this is all kind of irrelevant, isn't it?

I respectfully disagree. With humility I say that I consider it extremely relevant on an ongoing, long-term basis.

Sharing such information - if I had it - would negate the entire thrust of my post, no? Perhaps we can simply agree to disagree and let it go at that?

[Cantabrigian]

Alex,

I think that your point about the potential danger of working with a tailor with a quickly-established, internet-fueled reputation is spot on. Luckily, however, the internet does cut both ways on this issue, thanks to forums like this. Unfortunately, the flag of caution can’t really be raised until someone has had a bad experience. What else do you think could be done to make the process more transparent and better for all involved?

But as Concordia noted, it really isn’t applicable in this case since both Hitchcock and Mahon are listed as Certified Artisans, one of whom I believe already has something of a track record as a businessman as well as a tailor.

I would be interested to understand why it is that you would object to foreign tailors visiting the US. According to Leonard, the market here is significantly deeper than it is in the UK and there is a healthy demand for the service. I can’t begrudge an artisan for catering to a market where there is a demand for his services and I believe that both sides of the trade are better off by such visits. And I think that the Asian tailors who, I hear, deliver a decent product at a very competitive price have opened up the bespoke opportunity to many who would not otherwise have had it.

I would guess that using a small American shop is more risky than a well-established European one. It seems to me as though the longer a firm’s history and the more established (fiscally) it is, the less risk in the transaction. Unfortunately, America does not have many such institutions which would also force people to look to, in this case, Europe.

But to the point of your original post, it is unfortunate that Mahon posted that in the first place and I do hope – for the sake of the party involved – that the misunderstanding (if it were that) is resolved.

[BirdofSydney]

I wonder, has this issue arisen on account of the dual purpose of Mr. Mahon's blog as both a professional tool, to some extent, as well as a journal?

If I understand him properly, part of his object is to demystify the tailoring business for the sake of both curious customers and, moreover, young aspirants wondering what the industry entails. There are myriad confirmations of this on the site.

As such, he often seeks to paint a warts and all portrait of the Row and its various inhabitants. I don't think any of us would feel it especially slanderous to read his descriptions of the strict and often mean atmosphere in which he was trained at Anderson and Sheppard? None of us would stop visiting a tailor with a reputation for cutting in half a jacket stiched by a young acolyte who had made a mistake (indeed, many of us may feel edified to have chosen such a tailor).

In short, these are experiences of the industry related by Thomas Mahon, the private citizen, as a truthful exposition of his life and times.

Occasionally, there are remarks made my Thomas Mahon, the tailor, in his professional capacity to solicit business on a trip, to rate those tailors he considers best on the Row, to advise on shanking a button, etc.

I took the post in question to be one of the former nature, a mere "did you know how much tailors talk amongst themselves", rather than a blackballing of the unnamed individual from an esteemed member of the profession.

As ever, I may be wrong, but it's an interesting thought.

Best,

Eden

[AlexanderKabbaz]

I think that your point about the potential danger of working with a tailor with a quickly-established, internet-fueled reputation is spot on. Luckily, however, the internet does cut both ways on this issue, thanks to forums like this. Unfortunately, the flag of caution can’t really be raised until someone has had a bad experience. What else do you think could be done to make the process more transparent and better for all involved?

At the risk of beating a dad horse, I'll try. As I view the situation, the problem is primarily one of a legal nature. When a visiting tailor from another nation takes a deposit or cloth belonging to a client and then leaves the jurisdiction, all de facto recourse for the client is lost. Why? Simply economics. The costs of international litigation are enormous. Even a deposit of, say, $25,000 for a dozen suits and assuming complete non-delivery would be well below the minimum needed to initiate such litigation profitably. Hence, in effect, an unscrupulous maker can get off scot free whereas, within the United States - and even more easily within one State - the threat of litigation has an automatic impact on the maker's actions. Naturally, an A&S, a Poole, or one of the other large houses isn't going to forego decades of building their reputation and will in some way make the client whole again. As we've sadly experienced just last year, such is not the case with small operations which have, in the short term, more to lose by righting the situation than they do by simply ignoring it.
Are there viable solutions? I have not done a study of the matter, but a couple quickly come to mind.
1] A percentage of each deposit could be escrowed with a local attorney holding a p.o.a. for the artisan. The more clients, the larger would grow the escrow fund. Jeopardy would then attach locally in the event of default on the maker's part.
2] A bonding company could be engaged, often for a nominal fee, to guarantee performance or recompense. Makers could offer the bond as an option payable by the client similarly to the way every electronics store trys to sell you the additional three year waranty on your widget.
There are many on this forum with much greater knowledge in this arena than I who could probably come up with a long list of options in this regard.

I would be interested to understand why it is that you would object to foreign tailors visiting the US. According to Leonard, the market here is significantly deeper than it is in the UK and there is a healthy demand for the service. I can’t begrudge an artisan for catering to a market where there is a demand for his services and I believe that both sides of the trade are better off by such visits. And I think that the Asian tailors who, I hear, deliver a decent product at a very competitive price have opened up the bespoke opportunity to many who would not otherwise have had it.

I don't object to the visits of foreign tailors beyond the aspect of legal recourse.

I do, however, wonder why it seems that some aren't able to build a local client base in their homeland to cover overhead and the other basic costs of doing business before venturing off to the "promised land" where clients abound and liquid gold flows gushingly through the streets. I feel deeply that there is a certain arrogance to this concept. "Not good enough to make it on the Row? Then venture forth and fleece a few Yanks - they're easy marks." Moreover, there is no policing of this practice. Given that is the standard operating procedure of most of the travelling U.K. tailors, one would think that they would long ago have organized some sort of governing body. It is a rather sad thought to consider that the business practices of the owner of S-R dot com represent the Row itself, yet in two years none of the "Row Firms" have banded together to put a halt to it. The question then logically arises that, if I propose such a self-policing policy for tailors who visit the U.S., why have I not done so in my own back yard? The answer is simple. It is not the practice of American bespoke artisans to grab their kit bag and head for foreign lands. I don't contend that it has never been done; it isn't though, the regular course of business.
Just to reiterate, my great difficulty with the concept is one of simple legal recourse. As I detailed, there are ways to solve this problem. And in all probability much better ways than I was able to conjure up.

But to the point of your original post, it is unfortunate that Mahon posted that in the first place and I do hope – for the sake of the party involved – that the misunderstanding (if it were that) is resolved.

D'accord.

[rjman]

Alex:

I admit to being confused. It appears you are conflating the [alleged, don't want to get sued] actions of another tailor with Mahon's aside. I don't quite see the purpose.

Perhaps a bespoke shirt would help me see it better.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Alex: I admit to being confused. It appears you are conflating the [alleged, don't want to get sued] actions of another tailor with Mahon's aside. I don't quite see the purpose.

RJ:
I want the following to be perfectly clear: I have never mentioned Mr. Mahon. My thoughts have naught to do with him or his business. The topic was sparked by a post on his website having nothing to do with him. I do not know Mr. Mahon. I have not seen his work and have heard only very good things about it.

I have laid out my thoughts on the general subject in response only to Dr. Bresch's very natural expression of extreme curiosity which I rather suspect mirrors yours and many other readers of Englishcut, The Lounge, the StyleForum and, as I said, coming soon to ...

IIRC, the London Lounge is a gentlemen's club designed, among other things, to foster the future sanctity of the bespoke arts. Granted that the U.S. houses the largest client base. It won't take many more Beamanizings before we see an article in one of the elite media entitled, "British Tailors: Artisans of Cloth or Artists of Con?"

Perhaps a bespoke shirt would help me see it better.

I agree. Would it be of assistance if I called Mr. Colban to make an appointment for you? I believe that he has your pattern.

[Guest]

AK, you give me entirely too much credit. I want to know details out of puerile voyeurism and shadenfreud. Why do you think I became a shrink? ("Soooo Mrs Smith, could you go into more detail about what you did with the rubber snake and edible underwear you found in your husband's drawer........?")

Enquiring minds want to know! What happened?

[AlexanderKabbaz]

("Soooo Mrs Smith, could you go into more detail about what you did with the rubber snake and edible underwear you found in your husband's drawer........?")

Well ... don't leave us all in suspense!

[TVD]

Just read Tom Sharpe's The Throwback. The episode involving the elderly spinsters.

[rjman]

AK, you give me entirely too much credit. I want to know details out of puerile voyeurism and schadenfreude. Why do you think I became a shrink? ("Soooo Mrs Smith, could you go into more detail about what you did with the rubber snake and edible underwear you found in your husband's drawer........?")

Bresch, I thought you're not _that_ kind of shrink... [/b]

[Guest]

RJMan, are you questioning my truthiness? If a patient has something with voyeuristic potential, I make exceptions....

[Mark Seitelman]

Every area of human endeavor has its crooks, montebanks, and flim-flam artists. Also every business gets its share of theft, cancelled orders, and unpaid bills which have to be "written-off."

Why should bespoke clothing be exempt?

Example: I represent a tailor suing a customer who is a confidence man. The customer gets the tailor's confidence and friendship, orders a great amount of clothing using the most expensive cloths, and runs up a big bill which goes unpaid. This particular customer did this to another tailor, and he is probably on the prowl for more victims.

Alex, I respectfully urge that your suggestion is not workable and unnecessary in that 99% of visiting tailors and shirtmakers are honest and deliver excellent products. With the exception of the master tailor of Kingley Street, the old firms and the recent start-ups are not hit and run artists.