1) After two years of trying to dress well, I am observing some Euclidian truths about "minimum wardrobe." For one, the real minimum depends on your wear patterns (every day? 5 of 7 days? hard on shoes?). Second it depends on your laundry (for shirts: do you send out?). I realize that my minimum works out to a 3:1:1 ratio (shirts:outfit:shoes). I wear outfits every day (jacket and pants) and I have 16, perhaps a little high. Alden's 13 is just right I think. His shirts (36) and shoes, 8, are low for most people probably. Part of that is due to the extremes of temperature that require me to have really two separate shirt wardrobes.
2) Jantzen is very good for shirts. To get better one would have to shop at Bugelli or similar craftsmen. The biggest waste of money comes in the mid-range between these two ($45/shirt and ~$300/shirt). Jantzen has solved his service problems. You have to have reasonable expectations though and not be too specific. If you need tight fit or a very specific fabric, then you are out of luck on both counts, unless you visit Bugelli in person (or a comparable shirt maker).
3) Do you remember a discussion about Pantherella vs. Dore Dore? The AK (who sells Pantherella) endorsed Pantherella. I said that my initial inspection suggested Pantherella to be much more fragile-looking. We were both right. The Pantherella ARE much more fragile looking. Nevertheless, Pantherella are much better, at least presupposing you throw your socks in the dryer. My Dore Dore are in the garbage, and the AK has a new customer. He threw in a few extra socks just to really soften me up. Of Dore Dore, Brescianni, and Pantherella, another plus is that the Pantherella are the right height for low socks (some people cannot stand over-the-calf, like myself). But too low and the socks look like those athletic anklet socks girls wear. Not the Pantherella.
4) Thumbs up on remote bespoke. My Romanian tailor delivered to me three suits by mail, no fitting: Bill's Irish linen in navy blue, Smith's 12 oz fresco in navy blue, and Holland and Sherry alpaca/wool sharkskin. Remote bespoke can be done and it can be done well. Don't get me wrong, I am not endorsing a trip to Romania for everyone. But there are beautiful Eastern European capitals, all of whom must have good tailors, to be visited, and the price ($250 plus material but including shipping) is reason alone. This is no substitute for great local tailors like Centofanti. It is a lovely compliment.
A few observations
David, a few observations on your observations:
#2: David, are you saying that bespoke shirts between $45 and $300 are a waste of money? There are many many shirtmakers in Italy, and most likely in the far east who will take great offense at that. In fact, I just came back from Italy where I placed an order for a shirt of DJ Andersons Lino 130 (Pure Linen) and the total cost for me is about Euro 150.
#3 DD v.s Pantherella. My oldest DD goes back to 1997, none of my Pantherellas have lasted as long. David, are you getting 1st choice DDs?
#2: David, are you saying that bespoke shirts between $45 and $300 are a waste of money? There are many many shirtmakers in Italy, and most likely in the far east who will take great offense at that. In fact, I just came back from Italy where I placed an order for a shirt of DJ Andersons Lino 130 (Pure Linen) and the total cost for me is about Euro 150.
#3 DD v.s Pantherella. My oldest DD goes back to 1997, none of my Pantherellas have lasted as long. David, are you getting 1st choice DDs?
I have been happy with DDs and Pantherellas. I find that the quality of Pantherella socks can vary. For example, some of my Panthers made for Richard James fell apart after a few wearings. I have not worn my DDs long enough to comment on their longevity. I did make a mistake of buying some cotton lisle DDs in the mid-calf length. Those are some short socks.
I would be curious to see your new Romanian suits. If you can and are willing, kindly post photos. Thanks.
I would be curious to see your new Romanian suits. If you can and are willing, kindly post photos. Thanks.
I have had exactly the same experience with RJ's socks.bry2000 wrote: I find that the quality of Pantherella socks can vary. For example, some of my Panthers made for Richard James fell apart after a few wearings.
Leon
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As usual, T4Phage, you make me drool with desire for all these places YOU get stuff at. I am saying that in 2006 in Philadelphia and environs as well on the Internet, I cannot find anything superior to Jantzen short of going to someone like Bugelli. I think people posted on AAAC prices for other artisans in Italy and Bugelli was the cheapest of them. Remember, this is not a ding against shirts $50-300, it is more a reflection on how much shirt Jantzen gives for the money, provided one learns how to "milk it" like I have.
Regarding Dore Dore T4Phage, of course I cannot swear that I am getting first-tier Dore Dores! But my experience parallels bry2000's in that even if they lasted, they were too short after washing. They did not all develop holes (I think one of three did) but they all became incredibly short. Perhaps AK intercepted my shipment and sabotaged my Dore Dores, that is possible! That sneaky AK! The Pantherellas are under their own brand, and I imagine there is a lot of variety given that Pantherella manufactures socks for so many labels. AK's Pantherellas were identical to Pantherellas I bought at another merchant months ago, so they do have some consistency.
Regarding Dore Dore T4Phage, of course I cannot swear that I am getting first-tier Dore Dores! But my experience parallels bry2000's in that even if they lasted, they were too short after washing. They did not all develop holes (I think one of three did) but they all became incredibly short. Perhaps AK intercepted my shipment and sabotaged my Dore Dores, that is possible! That sneaky AK! The Pantherellas are under their own brand, and I imagine there is a lot of variety given that Pantherella manufactures socks for so many labels. AK's Pantherellas were identical to Pantherellas I bought at another merchant months ago, so they do have some consistency.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sorry, I forgot to mention, I will post pictures of the suits I had made as soon as I get a chance, I was just waiting until I started wearing them regularly.
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AlexanderKabbaz
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Thank you David. That is very kind of you.
Having dealt both with Pantherella and Dore Dore (as a retailer), these would be my observations:
Pantherella make an absolutely huge range of socks. Even as one with a great deal of experience buying them, I often find myself confused. The general group of most popular Pantherellas range anywhere from pure natural fiber up to 100% Nylon/0% Natural fiber. The ones to which David refers are 70% Cotton/30% Nylon. These are some of Pantherella's most durable. Way towards the other end of the spectrum would be the 85% Cashmere/15% Nylon. This needs really good care and is by no means in the category of Durable Sock.
The Pantherella lengths and sizes are excellent. The mid-calf (which they term the 'long-anklet') is, as David says, the perfect length for most. And their Over-the-Calf absolutely does not skimp on length. On most, it falls just below the knee.
On to the 'private label' socks made by Pantherella. Here, one has absolutely no idea what one is buying. It is not Pantherella who specifies the sock construction - it is the label owner. They may choose a lower quality yarn. They may select a higher or lower percentage of nylon. They may specify more (rare) or fewer (prevalent) yarns-per-inch in the construction. All these factors - and many others - have a greater or lesser impact on the final product.
One overriding caveat which has always made me lean towards Pantherella: if a sock is defective, they relace it. Period. No questions asked.
Not so my experience with Dore Dore. I stopped selling them about 15 years ago, so this is not a current experience. As a few have noted, the length is questionable. In my opinion, the yarn is quite a bit too thin; hence a durability issue with many of their blends. But for me, the final straw had to do with standing behind their product, as follows. A client bought a box of six pairs from me. A couple of weeks later, he returned with the box. Inside were 12 socks, all of which had open toes! The linking had come undone on each and every sock! This is entirely possible as groups of socks tend to stay together during the making. Obviously, either these 12 were made by a new and unqualified employee, or the defect was the result of a malfunctioning machine. But would you believe that Dore Dore told me it was the client's fault and refused to replace the half-dozen socks?
And that was my last experience with DD. Shortly thereafter they went into receivership. I've looked at their website in recent times and they seem to feature mostly items for women. So who knows?
Having dealt both with Pantherella and Dore Dore (as a retailer), these would be my observations:
Pantherella make an absolutely huge range of socks. Even as one with a great deal of experience buying them, I often find myself confused. The general group of most popular Pantherellas range anywhere from pure natural fiber up to 100% Nylon/0% Natural fiber. The ones to which David refers are 70% Cotton/30% Nylon. These are some of Pantherella's most durable. Way towards the other end of the spectrum would be the 85% Cashmere/15% Nylon. This needs really good care and is by no means in the category of Durable Sock.
The Pantherella lengths and sizes are excellent. The mid-calf (which they term the 'long-anklet') is, as David says, the perfect length for most. And their Over-the-Calf absolutely does not skimp on length. On most, it falls just below the knee.
On to the 'private label' socks made by Pantherella. Here, one has absolutely no idea what one is buying. It is not Pantherella who specifies the sock construction - it is the label owner. They may choose a lower quality yarn. They may select a higher or lower percentage of nylon. They may specify more (rare) or fewer (prevalent) yarns-per-inch in the construction. All these factors - and many others - have a greater or lesser impact on the final product.
One overriding caveat which has always made me lean towards Pantherella: if a sock is defective, they relace it. Period. No questions asked.
Not so my experience with Dore Dore. I stopped selling them about 15 years ago, so this is not a current experience. As a few have noted, the length is questionable. In my opinion, the yarn is quite a bit too thin; hence a durability issue with many of their blends. But for me, the final straw had to do with standing behind their product, as follows. A client bought a box of six pairs from me. A couple of weeks later, he returned with the box. Inside were 12 socks, all of which had open toes! The linking had come undone on each and every sock! This is entirely possible as groups of socks tend to stay together during the making. Obviously, either these 12 were made by a new and unqualified employee, or the defect was the result of a malfunctioning machine. But would you believe that Dore Dore told me it was the client's fault and refused to replace the half-dozen socks?
And that was my last experience with DD. Shortly thereafter they went into receivership. I've looked at their website in recent times and they seem to feature mostly items for women. So who knows?
This is when you know that you're dealing with the right people. This is the attitude that wins the day, in the long run. Anything less and it's really not worth the effort. You can chase price all over the land but peace of mind will win out, at least to my thinking.AlexanderKabbaz wrote: they relace it. Period. No questions asked.
DD is now owned by an Italian company who also manufactures socks... the name escapes me right now. I have never had the problems Mr. Kabbaz described happening to any of my DD's (and I own about 40 pairs) ranging from the pure woolens, the wool/nylons, the wool-cottons, and the pure cottons.
A few weeks ago I spoke to a Mr. John Plumb from Pantherella and we discussed my past problems with Pantherella, and he admitted that in the past they did have a tendancy to shrink, but nowadays they treat thier fibres to resist this problem. That lead me to try them out once again for some colourful argyles and cottons.
A few weeks ago I spoke to a Mr. John Plumb from Pantherella and we discussed my past problems with Pantherella, and he admitted that in the past they did have a tendancy to shrink, but nowadays they treat thier fibres to resist this problem. That lead me to try them out once again for some colourful argyles and cottons.
David,
Have to agree with your observations, particularly about Pantherella and Jantzen. I recently received a shirt from Jantzen and thought it was excellent and it arrived in 3 weeks. I wear Pantherellas (both cotton and wool) daily and they are absolutely the best socks I have ever had.
Would you mind sharing the name of your tailor and how did you find him?
Have to agree with your observations, particularly about Pantherella and Jantzen. I recently received a shirt from Jantzen and thought it was excellent and it arrived in 3 weeks. I wear Pantherellas (both cotton and wool) daily and they are absolutely the best socks I have ever had.
Would you mind sharing the name of your tailor and how did you find him?
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MaxnHarry, which one? The Romanian? Just to be clear, he fit me in person for my first suit, the powder blue linen suit that is just too bright for me to wear comfortably. He prepared the subsequent 3 suits from those measurements.
Yes the Romanian. Might be traveling that way in the future. Even at Chan's prices, the numbers make sense to pay for the travel and have a suit made. Looking forward to seeing the photos.
Could you supply some specifics of "milking" Jantzen as you called it? Have you provided accurate measurements, or have you artificially increased them? I find that after measuring twice, my Jantzen shirts still come back to me a little short in the arms and narrow in the shoulders.
I have provided what I thought were accurate measurements to them. The first shirts didnt fit really well. I adjusted my measurements and then submitted to a photo-critique of the shirt on Ask Andy. The latest shirt I have fits famously (even better than a Chan shirt that I was measured in person for). As far as getting good customer service, I tend to email and phone Ricky to keep my orders on track. I don't think you could get a 3-week turnaround from most bespoke makers.
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