Suiting clloth choice: Super or not?

[kolecho]

I get the feeling that many forummers here prefer traditonal suiting cloth with no Super designation (probably 80s) over those luxury cloths in Super 120s and above.

Is there any particular reason for that? Do traditional non-Super cloth offer better drape, body and longevity than Supers in the same weight class?

[alden]

I would say you are ok up to Super 100s. Others may place the bar at 150s. I don't own any clothes made of Super fabrics.

Cheers

[Will]

I agree with Michael.

[iammatt]

I don't agree. I think there are some suspect super 150s and 180s, but there are also some wonderful super 150s and 180s. They may not be somebody's first choice, but with proper research, and openness to a new and different type of cloth, you can find wonderful cloth.

[Mark Seitelman]

Generally, the cloths categorized as 100's or less are more durable, are available in heavier weights, wrinkle less, drape beauitifully, and are in the manner of the clothes of the golden age of menswear (the 1930's).

The super luxury cloths in 150's and higher are beautiful and have an unbelievable hand. I have heard that some CEO types buy these cloths for suits that they wear only a few times for important meetings. However, I have heard that these cloths are not as durable as the lower number ones. Therefore, a 220's would be a thing of beauty that your wife might admire, but it would not be a workhorse suiting.

Would I dismiss a cloth in 120's out of hand? No.

Would I be reluctant to buy above 120's? Yes for the aforementioned reasons.

[Huzir]

Much, I think, depends on the weight of the Super cloth in question, because that will have an effect on the drape. Most Supers I have seen are very light. If there's a 13 oz. Super 150 out there, I'd be happy to consider it.

[TVD]

The super numbers are similar to a Parker score on a wine: they offer a false sense of confidence to the uninitiated but do not guarantee that you will like what you buy. Quality is a more subtle and subjective issue than just the diameter of the woollen fibre used.

As noted previously, there are wonderful high count super fabrics, and there are superb cloths that do not carry any such numbering. Just ask yourself what you want to achieve with the particular garnment. Obvioulsy the colour and pattern are important. But also the weight (or more precisely the cloth's breathability), drape, durability, surface definition. Also think about other fibres than just wool.

The modern luxury cloth industry is very much focused around superfine densly woven worsteds (those S150s and upwards). Because they are made from very fine yarns, they are thin and lightweight. This reduces their durability, but also makes them less breathable. So very often a Super 150 is lighter but equally warm as a coarser and more breathable fabric. For a spring or autumn formal suit that is worn infrequently, I like some of these fabrics. Especially some dark blue herringbones look fantastic and have a wonderful sheen. But they do not drape well and this is a look that must be accepted.

But Super 150plus worsted is just one instrument in the orchestra that should be a man's wardrobe. There are many other cloths that are beautiful and practical: luxurious flannels for winter and more casual occasions, bulletproof English 11oz and 13oz worsteds for town and business from autumn to spring, tropical weaves and mohair blends as days are hotting up, frescos and linen for the blistering heat of summer, cashmere for luxury, tweeds for the country, and many many more. Why deprive oneself of this variety?

One unfortunate aspect of this Super numbers armaments race is that demand for other high quality fabrics is declining and it has become increasingly difficult to source them, especially when not in London where the choice is still considerable. The reduced range available (or rather not available) in Lesser's Lumb's Golden Bale is one shameful example.

I encourage you to enquire and experiment. Spend more time looking at the swatch books, engage your cutter and educate yourself. Ask him to teach you how to evaluate cloth, investigate his personal preferences. Try to understand his reasoning. Soon, you will be able to feel the differences as you rub the cloth between thumb and index finger. Imagine how the cloth will drape: the extrafine supers feel wonderful. But do they have guts? Do you need guts? Ask to see lengths of cloth. They tell you more than a miniscule swatch. Hold the cloth against the light: this will give you an idea how dense or breathable it may be. I always find that I know nothing, really, and that this exploration is most enjoyable.

So head away from the easy confidence of the Super score. This is simplistic at best, and a case of mine is more expensive than yours at worst. But the true connoisseur does not need that number.

[iammatt]

But Super 150plus worsted is just one instrument in the orchestra that should be a man's wardrobe. There are many other cloths that are beautiful and practical: luxurious flannels for winter and more casual occasions, bulletproof English 11oz and 13oz worsteds for town and business from autumn to spring, tropical weaves and mohair blends as days are hotting up, frescos and linen for the blistering heat of summer, cashmere for luxury, tweeds for the country, and many many more. Why deprive oneself of this variety?

Bravo!

This is perfectly stated. The high supers are great for certain occasions, cuts and looks. I do not think that I would build an entire wardrobe from them, but am very happy with the one Super 180 suit that I do have. I cannot say the same thing about the first generation 180s that I tried years ago. The newer cloths are much more durable, and while not "bulletproof", they are not once a year, or once a month either.

I think that there is room for all sorts of cloths in a man's wardrobe. The problem with 150s and 180s is that you have to buy the highest quality ones available. This gets quite expensive. However, the feel of my 180s suit is beyond belief.