A three nations bespoke conversation

[alden]

I often have the chance in Paris to enjoy a fine cigar or pipe with a few gentlemen in the clothes trade in an exclusive shop on the rue Marbeuf not far from the Berluti store.

Monsieur P who owns and operates a shop on the famed rue is an authority on French bespoke custom tailoring: its fine history and sordid present. He also has the good taste to possess an impressive collection (over 500) of antique and modern hand made English pipes, the majority of which are signed “Dunhill.”

Signore R is a Roman, who has an important clothes business in Italy and in Paris. He spends much of his time between these two cities.

I thought you might enjoy sitting in on one of our conversations because they do reveal the sensibilities of three similar and yet diverse approaches to dress. It always strikes me that representing the English or Anglo-Saxon side of the argument in the face of these two Latins can be a bit of a challenge.

Here is the first installment:

Rue Marbeuf

P: I had a chance to go to Savile Row the other day, Michael, I have to say that the finish of the coats I saw there was awful. Most of the interiors work is by machine, even lapels and front quarters are machine sewn. How is it that there are industrial MTM and RTW makers that can finish clothes better than tailors in the UK these days? Brioni, St. Andrews, Kiton finish clothes in a way that your tailors cannot match.

A: I don’t deny a word of what you say. It is a shame that tailors at this level employ the machine as much as they do, especially given the prices they are asking and the marketing they deploy. But on a general note, the English customer has always been less fussy about the finish of clothes because he tends to be less “clothes” and more “dressing” focused. What matters most to a dresser is good cut and fit. If the clothes fit they will be comfortable and easy to wear. That is what matters.

P: And Windsor, his clothes were not finished well? The English makers of the past made beautiful clothes!

A. Not really. Having inspected many garments worn by Windsor I can say that fundamentally they are of the same finish and quality as those sold today by the better houses and top independents. I suppose its safe to say that the Duke’s English tailors never intended to produce beautiful clothes in the way you mean. They were more inclined to favor comfort and fit over pure aesthetics. The quality of the cloth used in those days was superior to that used today and that made the works more pleasing to the eye.

R: But aesthetics are everything. Here is something I do not understand about the English. Why do we spend the time to go to bespoke if not for aesthetics? The tailor should transform his customer, that is his essential talent and value. If I put on a coat and look exactly as I do normally, then I am wasting my time and money. The tailor has to make me look better not feel better. I could give a hoot about comfort, give me style! If heads don’t spin around when I walk down the street, then I am not well dressed! That’s my reply to your Lord Brummell.

A. The suit you are wearing is very nice, are you transformed because the tailor has made an effort to hide the extra kilos around your middle, that are not really hidden at all. Do you not see that the trying, the effort expended to hide those kilos is visible. Can you spot a toupee covering a bald spot?

R: I feel good in this suit even if it is a bit tight now. OK I am not tall and slim, but a tall man’s suit does not need to change or enhance his figure so maybe he can be content with comfort, but I do need some help. If I had to live all the time with English food maybe I will never be tempted to put on the kilos, but in Rome we eat very well…

A: Sicily is even more disastrous to one’s figure, but that’s a different subject. But it is not the coat that will transform you as you intend, but the way you wear the coat, the way you dress. If you accept to be of heavy stature that is fine, don’t cover it up. You have a fine Roman head of hair. If you were bald, would you wear that toupee? I expect not. Hiding your physical flaws accentuates and amplifies them. It draws our eyes attention directly to them. The only way for your clothes to be aesthetically pleasing is for you to be aesthetically pleasing. So change yourself, or forget aesthetics; and if you do not have the figure of David, what are you going to do?

R: All men want to look as good as they can look.

A: Do you wish to be beautiful or elegant?

R: And P’s comment is right, a coat should look sartorial as well. If it looks like a normal coat who will know you have been to the tailor? It might just as well have come from a shop! Here the Italians are the very best, the hand work we can deploy is second to none.

P: Give us style in a form that is aesthetically pleasing. Its fine to talk about clothes that feel sartorial, but they need to look sartorial as well. The French tailors of the past made the most beautiful clothes. They surpassed even the Italians, my dear R, in their detail work and hand stitching; Italian dandies like Gabriele d’Annunzio came to Paris for their clothes after all. Take a look at the work of Camps, Rousseau, Urban or those of Marc Deluca’s father if you want to see beautiful tailoring.

A: You won’t have an argument from me. The handwork and finish of the tailors you mention is superb. But by focusing once again on finish you are missing the forest for the trees. The point is dress. The finish of the clothes you mention were fit for a king, but did they fit? If they did not fit, what is the purpose of the exquisite finishing?

P: Well they would have fit quite well back then. The problem today in France is the lack of skilled cutters. In order for clothes to fit, they have to be cut by experienced hands. These things you cannot learn in just a few days or even years. Since we don’t have the talented cutting hands anymore, we have to give customers what we have to give: fine finishing.

A: Very true, and yet the whole point of bespoke is to benefit from such experience to the extent that it exists today. Great finishing and aesthetics will only take you so far, the client will soon be feel deceived if his beautiful clothes do not fit him.

P: So we offer him what we can offer, great RTW clothes made to look like the work of tailors.

R: Well we still have some good hands in Italy, but they are vanishing everyday. The market turned along time ago towards artificially sweetened RTW, the customers today don’t even notice the difference. Why seek the ultimate in bespoke when the clients won’t even appreciate or recognize it?

A: Well the first thing to do would to be to agree what the ultimate bespoke product would be. If we triangulate from our respective sartorial traditions, we would imagine that the ideal bespoke garment should fit well, be comfortable, it should be aesthetically pleasing and exquisitely finished. The strong points of each of our traditions rolled into one.

P: But such a rarefied thing barely existed even in the hey day of the bespoke, so how could we make it today?

(to be continued)

[DD MacDonald]

M, nice read with a cup of coffee on a Sunday morning. Looking forward to the rest. Its our very own " My dinner with Alden" Thanks, DDM

[dopey]

Just a guess, but I bet you were being kind by referring to that mere one extra kilo.

I have to say that I am in Alden's camp. If forced to choose, I will take cut over finishing every time. I will also note that there are times when the desire for exquisite finishing can lead to a bit of over-exuberance that is distracting. On the other hand, while I prefer a cleaner finish on the outside, I love to see beautiful handwork on a coat's interior.

[alden]

Dopey

I happen to be fortunate to know a few very large men who are extremely elegant. One of them is a member of the LL. These men know how to dress. I think on both sides of the register, an overly micro look at tailoring or an ignorance of same, can have disastrous consequences on dress.

There are very few craftsmen and I can think of a handful who are able to combine good fit, cut and finishing in one package. Tony Gaziano is a great example of one of them. Anyone who knows Tony's bespoke work knows that proper fit is a sine qua non. And yet he is able to create some beautiful styles with unique cuts and a superb finish. That is the sort of thing we are all looking for and in the tailoring world it is all but impossible to find.

M Alden

[andreyb]

This conversation reminded me on an old tailor's dictum, cited by Flusser in one of his books: "compromise on quality if you must, never on fit".

Andrey

[culverwood]

One of the gentlemen mentions the lower quality of finishing of English tailoring and this maybe something that a tailor or someone in the trade can spot.

I am pretty sure that the client and his friiends and aquaintances will see much more easily if a suit does not fit well.

[sartorius]

I had a chance to go to Savile Row the other day, Michael, I have to say that the finish of the coats I saw there was awful. Most of the interiors work is by machine, even lapels and front quarters are machine sewn.

This is an unfortunate statement, not least because it is a sweeping and unverifiable generalisation. Did the speaker physically inspect the work of a number of establishments, or was he judging based on window displays viewed from a distance? Were the "coats" in question being touted as bespoke, or as something else?

The subject is important, but we should recognise that there are a wide variety of outlets (and presumably therefore of quality) on SR. To generalise like this, in a way which implies that the criticism applies to everyone, are to my mind not very enlightening.

[alden]

This is an unfortunate statement, not least because it is a sweeping and unverifiable generalisation. Did the speaker physically inspect the work of a number of establishments, or was he judging based on window displays viewed from a distance? Were the "coats" in question being touted as bespoke, or as something else?

Well, I reported the statement verbatim. P is as petulant a Parisian as has been born but he knows tailoring. The French and the English have a very special place in the heart for each other.... if you see what I mean.

On the other side of the coin, if you compare the finishing of the major bespoke houses on SR with the work done by a few craftsmen in France and Italy, there is a world of difference. I consider myself one of the most outspoken defenders of SR, but I am not blind to the fact that finish is not a SR inherent strength.

There are probably many exceptions to this general rule and I do not pretend to know every single bespoke maker's output in the UK by heart, but I do know many of them. As a matter of fact, I think if you read my comments carefully or my writings on this site, you will find that, at the end of the day, I like English finishing the way it is.

Michael Alden

[masterfred]

Have the SR houses deteriorated to the point that they no longer at least pad their chestpieces, lapels, and collars by hand? Those areas were once sacrosanct, it seemed.

[alden]

Have the SR houses deteriorated to the point that they no longer at least pad their chestpieces, lapels, and collars by hand? Those areas were once sacrosanct, it seemed.

I think there were pictures floating around somewhere of machined collars and lapels. Look, I think most of the good SR houses and independents still construct well ie lapels and chests by hand. Its some of the detail work in the finish that is lacking.

The hand felling of the linings, and quality of the buttonholes on some of the old French bespoke was nothing short of spectacular. But even those days are pretty much long gone. There is one Italian lady who does all the finishing for the major bespoke tailors in Paris, she is very gifted. But how much longer she will work is a good question.

M Alden

[smoothjazzone]

Anyone who knows Tony's bespoke work knows that proper fit is a sine qua non.

Based on my own experience, I cannot agree with that statement -- yet. I can only hope that I am in a very small minority. Cleverley's finishing is considerably weaker than Tony's -- but fit wise, they are vastly superior (no comparison really). As Dopey, I am in complete agreement with Alden's choice of fit over finishing and as such Cleverley continues to receive my custom.

[Concordia]

Based on my own experience, I cannot agree with that statement -- yet. I can only hope that I am in a very small minority. Cleverley's finishing is considerably weaker than Tony's -- but fit wise, they are vastly superior (no comparison really). As Dopey, I am in complete agreement with Alden's choice of fit over finishing and as such Cleverley continues to receive my custom.

My experience also, although I am reluctant to give up easily.

[sartorius]

Quote:
This is an unfortunate statement, not least because it is a sweeping and unverifiable generalisation. Did the speaker physically inspect the work of a number of establishments, or was he judging based on window displays viewed from a distance? Were the "coats" in question being touted as bespoke, or as something else?


Well, I reported the statement verbatim. P is as petulant a Parisian as has been born but he knows tailoring. The French and the English have a very special place in the heart for each other.... if you see what I mean.

I was not questioning the accuracy of the reporting, rather the veracity of the statement itself. Criticism like this is easy to make, and of course conveniently impossible to disprove. I am not here to defend SR, but unverifiable statements like this are usually self-serving: witness some of the rubbish which has been issuing from the Italian haute couture publicity machine recently about SR bespoke.

I would also take issue with the notion that "finishing" is somehow more important than fit. I certainly expect my bespoke clothing to be hand finished (and my experience of SR is that all stitiching (certainly what is visible) is done by hand), but if finish is all you care about, then you are liable to end up with a very superficial item of clothing.

[alden]

I would also take issue with the notion that "finishing" is somehow more important than fit. I certainly expect my bespoke clothing to be hand finished (and my experience of SR is that all stitching (certainly what is visible) is done by hand), but if finish is all you care about, then you are liable to end up with a very superficial item of clothing.

Mr. A in the conversation (that's yours truly) agrees with you completely. Outside of Rousseau, who was a cutter at Camps, Gabriel Gonzalez, Rovito and Mark Deluca there are not many bespoke tailors left in Paris who know how to fit. But fit was never a major preoccupation for the French or Italians as it was for the English. The French were preoccupied with finishing detail and the Italians with styling. That is the point of the above discussion.

Today the French and Italians are producing RTW that is finished in manner that is inconsistent with the intrinsic value of the garment: a low value for a garment that does not fit. What would be the point of putting Connoly leather and burled walnut into the interior of a Renault Megane? Mr. P would say, "look at that beautiful interior." And we wold reply, "its still a Renault Megane."

[iammatt]

Mr. A in the conversation (that's yours truly) agrees with you completely. Outside of Rousseau, who was a cutter at Camps, Gabriel Gonzalez, Rovito and Mark Deluca there are not many bespoke tailors left in Paris who know how to fit. But fit was never a major preoccupation for the French or Italians as it was for the English. The French were preoccupied with finishing detail and the Italians with styling. That is the point of the above discussion.

Interesting. I have noticed, or perhaps have thought that I have noticed, that a disproportionate number of suits made on Savile Row today have an odd back bunching issue above the hips. It seems like an epidemic.

I do agree that in Italy you see a lot of suits that are obviously bespoke but ill fitting. I am not sure where people are finding them, but they are not very pleasing. Perhaps you could speak to that a bit.

My only experience with France is Charvet and for shirts only, and for my wife at that. The fit is extraordinary and they seem to take fit extremely seriously. The finishing is just good but not spectacular.