The London Lounge

There has been a question regarding bespoke, MTM and special orders and I thought it well to repost one of the original LL posts on the subject:

"Let's Define Bespoke and Start From There"

I was asked recently to define the term "bespoke" by a reader on
a forum where I had answered a question regarding Mariano
Rubinacci. It so happens that in my limited time visiting various dressing boards, I have seen the term "bespoke" used to describe just about
any kind of garment making that involves taking a measurement. And
yet “bespoke” has a very precise meaning. I have also noticed, and
this is common because marketers purposely misuse terms to try and
dupe potential clients, that bespoke, and MTM are used almost as
synonyms.

I would like to use the process of making a "bespoke" shirt as a way
to describe what is "bespoke" and what is "besmoke."

My shirtmaker starts by taking my measurements. Okay so far so good,
everyone takes measurements. He may ask to see me wearing another
bespoke shirt as well on my first visit to see if there are any
obvious problems. From the measurements, he will draw and cut a
first pattern of my shirt. Here we enter into the crux of the
matter. He does not use a generic pattern, or one spit out of a computer CAD CAM program and then do alterations
(MTM)! He draws and cuts a custom pattern just like your tailor does to make you a suit.

From the first draft pattern, he will cut a basted trial shirt in muslin
and there will be a first fitting. Any errors or changes are noted
and fixed on the spot with a little cutting and sewing.

Then, if necessary, a second basted trial shirt in muslin will
be made and fitted. Then the shirtmaker will take that second basted
shirt perfected from two fittings and re-cut a new and final version
of the pattern. From this pattern, he will cut and make the first
shirt. If there are changes after fitting the first shirt, then once
again, he will go back to the pattern and make the required changes. But this is
relatively rare at this stage, if the shirtmaker is an expert or unless, like yours truly, you have a very difficult figure to fit.

The process of making a bespoke shirt is a long one. The shirtmaker works
for many many hours before cutting the first shirt. The materials
used should be first rate. The fit should be first rate.

If you have not gone through the above process to have your shirt
made, then you do not have a "bespoke" shirt on your back. You may
very well have a nice shirt on your back, but it is not
a "bespoke" shirt. It is an MTM shirt.

The cost of a bespoke shirt is high, normally 300 to 700 euros. But
if you keep extra material for new collars and cuffs, then your
shirt will last indefinitely. Some of mine are now twenty-five years
old and still look great. So, in the long run, these shirts are not
as expensive as they seem.

I have used "bespoke" shirts as an example of what true
handcraftsmanship is. A similar process will hold true if you are
making suits, overcoats, pajamas or boxer shorts. You see, the sartorial arts are not as
mysterious as they seem to be or as serious.

This is a consumer alert as well. If you are going to pay "bespoke"
prices then please be kind enough to demand "bespoke" services. One
of the key reasons for the decline in the number of fine tailors is
the lack of demanding clients. The more you know, the more you
expect, the more you take control of the process, and the better
the final product will be for you and your maker. And the more
pressure you put on for excellence, the more the artisans will have
to perfect their skills, and everyone benefits from this.

In the future, a suggestion would be to try and use the
word "bespoke" only when referring to the above process so we can
all be talking about the same thing and not a mish mash. If you have
a MTM or RTW, there is no shame. Some are very good. But if
everything is "bespoke" then the word starts to lose its meaning and
communication becomes difficult at best.

If you are using a MTM provider there are ways for you to get the
most from your experience and that maybe should be the subject of
another post. But don't let your ego or the marketing kings dupe you
into thinking that your MTM is traditional bespoke.

Cheers

I am working on an article for a Danish magazine on classic shirts and your writing really helps me to define the ultimate classic shirt. Thank you.

On the other hand, it also makes me eager to know what you think about the (too?) famous shirtmakers from Jermyn Street. What do Harvie & Hudson, Hildtich & Key, New & Lingwood and Turnbull & Asser deliver? Is it bespoke or MTM?

If it is MTM, is it fair to equal their service to shops like www.micamisa.com and www.tailorshirts.com, which is also MTM? Can’t we differentiate between MTM services?

Right now, I use these categories:

Bespoke
Made-to-measure
Stock Special
Ready-to-wear

Do they work?

/Gruto, cph

Gruto wrote:I am working on an article for a Danish magazine on classic shirts . . . .

When you complete the article, Gruto, would you be so kind as to post the text (or a link to the text) here? We all profit from as much informed opinion as we can read.

Dear Sir,

There are at least two levels of MTM and for lack of a more imaginative description one might call them high quality MTM and standard or "industrial" MTM. It's a subject of an article that will be published on the LL soon.

Industrial MTM represents the lion's share of the marketplace. Customers do not have a personalized pattern and the overall process is similar to that of a "stock special." Much of what is produced on Jermyn Street fits this description as do the internet vendors cited in your post.

In high quality MTM a pattern is developed for the client through the process of fittings, trial and error, and alterations beginning with a stock pattern. Many providers will consider and market themselves as "bespoke" using the creation of the individual pattern as the basis for the claim. But it is entirely possible to have a personalized pattern and an ill fitting shirt if the process used in the creation of the pattern is inadequate.

Great fitting shirts are the result of an artisan’s fitting skills. A great pattern is the representation of these fitting skills transmitted onto paper. The process used and talent deployed in the creation of the pattern will allow us to distinguish high quality MTM from the very best in Bespoke.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are excellent artisans producing outstanding bespoke products; and there are average artisans producing average ones as well as even less talented makers producing poor ones. Very often an excellent, high level MTM product will be much better than an average or poor bespoke product.

Only the most gifted bespoke artisans are able to create products whose fit and finish surpass the very best MTM. Their works are the subject of our admiration.

Best wishes for your article.

Welcome to the LL!

M Alden

Michael,

If my memory serves me well, you planned to write an article about "little known" English bespoke makers some time ago. What is the status of this project? I believe that the results would be of very much interest for many LL members.

Andrey

Another useful explanation, Mr Alden, thanks. I am looking forward to the extended version on MTM proces, artisan etc.

Gruto

Is it the repeated fittings or the fact that the pattern is ""made for you" that makes a shirt bespoke?

In a trivial sense all shirt patterns come from a standard pattern - neck, arms, etc.

What is the difference between pattern making in bespoke vs. MTM?

Cantabrigian wrote:Is it the repeated fittings or the fact that the pattern is ""made for you" that makes a shirt bespoke?

Should be both. The pattern is the acid test, but unless the shirtmaker is a genius savant, he will need to persevere through a little trial and error to ensure that the pattern is right.

What is the difference between pattern making in bespoke vs. MTM?

This is a bit hard to put into words. But think of it this way. A pattern is a two dimensional object. It is lines on paper. The excess is cut away. You are left with irregular polygons, the thickness of which is irrelevant. So two dimensions.

Each edge or line corresponds directly to an edge or line on the cut pieces of cloth that will be sewn into a shirt. On a made-to-measure pattern, you can perhaps lengthen this line, shorten that line, etc. On a bespoke pattern, every line is up for grabs. Every angle, every measurement, every distance, every curve, every slope is up for grabs. This enables the bespoke pattern to conform to the precise shape of the client's body. The bespoke pattern thus reaches beyond merely getting the basic things -- the collar, the point-to-point, the sleeve length -- correct. It gets everything correct. The contour of the shoulders, the chest to waist to hip taper, the sleeve pitch, the curve of the back, etc.

Need there have been a fitting or two with a muslin shirt?

My shirtmaker, proceeds directly to sample shirts made from the material he will be using on the finished shirts. From his website, I am lead to believe that Alex Kabbaz does the same - though I may well be mistaken.

Kabbaz will just keep making sample shirts for you until he is satisfied with the pattern. Only then will he cut your order. I suppose those samples can be called "muslins" but they are made with real shirtings -- typically 2x2 100s (in awful colors) -- not muslin. Alex says that this is the way all the shirtmakers in NYC used to do it. I am skepetical, but I suppse he would know.

I have no experience with NY shirtmakers, but I have often enough gone through the process of "let's not waste the trial shirt completely" and just select an "ordinary shirting", only to be left with a well fitting but unwearably coloured / coarse / ugly shirt. However, as there is nothing wrong with it, it is especially difficult to justify throwing it out.

My shirtmaker immediately makes a sample shirt in the fabric you have chosen for your final shirt but that is London, not NY. And he still allows you to make changes until you are satisfied.

Cantabrigian wrote:My shirtmaker immediately makes a sample shirt in the fabric you have chosen for your final shirt but that is London, not NY. And he still allows you to make changes until you are satisfied.

This is also the methodology employed at Turnbull & Asser. Dispensing with the "muslins", they provide a sample shirt to wear and wash three times, prior to a second fitting.

Perhaps this is simply a regional difference Jermyn Street makers. But I would certainly believe that both qualifty as bespoke.

There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the muslin/trial shirt/sample shirt process. In my opinion, the following is proper:
After taking measurements and draughting the pattern (from a blank paper), that which I call a "sample" shirt is cut and sewn in the normal course. After a thorough laundering, the client then tries it on and both client & maker criticise and suggest corrections. From this discussion, the maker then makes changes to the paper pattern. Here is where opinions begin to diverge. At that point, I begin anew and make a second shirt from scratch using, as Manton described, "awful" colors and - as he did not say - usually damaged - fabrics ... but fabrics which are woven from the same yarn and by the same weavers as the actual fabrics selected by the client. The fitting, criticism, and correction process is then repeated. Why a new shirt?
1] Shirtings differ greatly from woolens. Generally, shirtings are delicate. The process of disassembly tends to stretch and distort this gentle cloth. Such is not the case with woolens which, additionally, are usually only basted at first. If one re-uses the original trial shirt, there is no way to determine the degree of stretching which has transpired. Hence, the second shirt is not an accurate reflection of the paper pattern.
2] The first sample was tried on after a thorough laundering. There is no way to reverse the effects of laundering. Hence, again, the second sample would not be an accurate rendition of the paper pattern because the cloth being used was not 'first stage', it would be instead 'after laundering' stage.

At some point in this repetetive process, the client is - hopefully - satisfied. At times simultaneously, but more often after a few more 'tweaks', the maker should be satisfied. Why? Who is better qualified to judge that which is correct? Client or maker? To offer benchmarks, the fewest number of sample shirts I have ever made was one; the greatest number, twenty-one. Our average is 2.5.

It is only at this point that a 'real' shirt should be sewn and proffered to te client for a wearing and washing or three.

What happens to the 'samples'? In our case, we donate them to a charity such as the Salvation Army where they commence a second life of sartorial usefulness by dressing those down-on-their-luck for job interviews.