Transcript of chat with Tony Gaziano, bespoke shoemaker
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:28 pm
For those of you who were not able to attend the chat, here is a transcript:
tonyg enters this room
[alden] Welcome Tony
[alden] How are things up North, Tony?
[tonyg] Very wet, don't you love the English summer?
[alden] I would very much like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to join us.
[tonyg] It is my pleasure.
[alden] Your availability, Tony, has been of such great value to all our Members and Guests. And the pictures of your works show how well you are able to work with your customers to make some splendid objects.
[tonyg] In case you read a post concerning an 83 last, I would just like to confirm that there is no such last.
[alden] But, there is an 82 last and it is simply the nicest, most elegant round- toe on the market today...Congrats to you and to EG!
[alden] Tony I would like to start off some questions for you. I would like to ask Tony to tell us a bit about his process of working with clients, the consultative phase, some of the works from Mr. Hayes have been superb. What is the process that leads to such works?
[tonyg] Mr. Hayes really makes me work hard but I enjoy it all the more. There are many things involved in the process, the first one is to make sure that the shoes fit obviously and then we can go on to extreme designs and proportion. Communication and dedication to the client is the most important. The customer also comes from many different angles, some know what they want, and others tell me what function they need to use the shoes for. Then I advise, and with clients like Mr. Hayes we design the shoes together. Certain feet are suitable only to particular shoes and if the style does not suit the foot then I will simply advise to choose otherwise, if the customer insists then i will work harder to make the shoe right for his foot
[bengal-stripe] Is the majority of bespoke customers shoe literate or even shoe interested?
[tonyg]The customers that are shoe literate represent about 30% of all customers.
[alden] Bengal-stripe, when you say shoe literate do you mean technical aspects or styling aspects?
[bengal-stripe] I mean it more in styling aspects and also knowing what can, and what cannot be done
[tonyg] I am referring to the technical aspects.
[tonyg] A lot of customers, even designers, do not know what is practical and can be done. Unfortunately most designers only learn about one side of the product, the drawing side. Not many at all know how a welt is sewn in or a sole stitched. But customers do know about fit and proportions.
[bengal-stripe] When you make a (commercial) last, like 82 I presume, you make only one prototype in size 8 or so. Is the sizing up and down (size 5 – 13) and different fittings done by computer these days.
[tonyg] Yes it's done by computer and is called “grading.”
[T4phage] A question regarding side elastics! In the EG whole cut version, the Ringwood versus the more standard side elastics like the Kibworth, there is a seam on the standard side elastics, on the forefoot. Does the lack of a built in flexion point affect the Ringwood?
[tonyg] The Ringwood would simply crease more across the front, other than that, no.
[spinola] Tony, have you changed direction since leaving Cleverley? I notice that your shoes look, let's say a little sharper than the Cleverley shoes I've seen.
[tonyg] Yes very much so. I would like to think that they are a more modern classic
[lancepryor] Tony, if you've not done so, could you briefly address the state of bespoke shoemaking in the UK? How do you feel about its future, the availability of quality craftsmen, etc.
[tonyg] Do you want the honest answer or the kind one?
[lancepryor] The honest answer!
[tonyg] UK bespoke I think is suffering and pound for pound I would rate some of the European bespoke makers slightly better (present company excepted of course) Its all to do with production levels, fortunately mine are very low so its easy for me to produce the quality required.
[lancepryor] So, in your opinion is it a challenge of finding the right craftsmen, as opposed to a challenge of customer demand?
[tonyg] No the challenge is for the shoemaker to have a good system and be completely dedicated to his customers, the sole makers and closing craft is fine
[tonyg] We need more dedicated people like you Lance
[andreybokhanko] There is only limited number of well-known bespoke shoemakers in England: Lobb, Cleverley, N&L, Green and... that's basically all. Tony, what do you see in the future? That is, is there a future for bespoke shoemaking in England? These companies... Do they have training programs or just trying to survive?
[tonyg] That’s a difficult one. It really depends on who is able to push the quality up, you guys are becoming more educated in the product which means we have to work harder for perfection. There is definitely a future for bespoke in the UK but I fear that the present situation may be quite mixed up within the next 5-10 years. My aim is to keep consistency and customer service as high as possible.
[Jona] Tony, in which part of shoemaking you are currently more involved? And which part do you prefer?
[tonyg] Last making, pattern cutting, closing, measuring, and alterations all equal. I prefer pattern cutting as it represents most of the design side.
[Jona] With pattern cutting, you mean the shaping of the last? Or it is the cutting of the leather?
[tonyg] No I mean cutting the proportions of the upper style.
[manton] Tony, there seems to be two schools of design for bespoke shoes. One is to make the most elegant last possible, using a little artifice here and there. The other is to make the last conform as exactly as possible to the shape the foot, even if it is somewhat odd. Do you agree and which do you prefer?
[tonyg] The service is for the customer so if he prefers shape over fit then I will veer more towards the aesthetics and fit is priority then I will still try to give good aesthetics but concentrate more on the fit, i prefer aesthetics. I love design and creation. Even though a monk shoe is a monk shoe, in bespoke, all is individual.
[bengal-stripe] With trainers or sneakers as footwear of choice for most young guys shouldn’t the footwear industry do more to promote “proper shoes can be fun” Berluti does it, but does anyone else? Do you think the footwear industry fails?
[tonyg] I think that’s also a matter for the NHS (UK “National Health Service”.) Some young people’s feet are appalling as a result of bad footwear.
[charle22] Tony, specifically what do mean when referring to "fitting"; also, when is your next NYC visit and venue.
[tonyg] A fitting is when I make the shoes to a half way stage and the customer tries them on to make sure the last is correct, I will post me NYC schedule in the shoes section next week.
[lancepryor] Tony, would you talk describe more about the crust leather EG use.
[tonyg] The crusts are made quite simply in much the same way as a lining leather is made. First for EG is the matter of selection. Out of 100 skins EG may see they will accept one. They are then simply drummed and dyed to the base color. The rest is done in the factory.
[lancepryor] But the skins are not veg tanned, are they? I assume they are alum tanned?
[tonyg] They are Chrome tanned.
[andreybokhanko] Thanks. There is much interest in East Europe bespoke shoemaking lately (esp. Hungary and Poland). Besides England, USA and Austria, what countries have tradition of making high-class bespoke shoes for men? What about Russia?
[tonyg] Paris, Italy(Gatto) I'm not sure about Russia but i know there are some excellent shoemakers in Japan.
[spinola] Tony, in what way are bespoke shoes superior to trainers as far as the health of the foot is concerned? My intuition would suggest that whilst the former will provide superior support, this may be at the expense of circulation.
[tonyg] You are correct in your assumption about support but also absorption and balance. But I do not think a bespoke shoe should reduce circulation.
[manton] I'm not asking for you to divulge margins or trade secrets. Really. But the cost differential between a bespoke shoe and top quality RTW shoe is much greater than that between a top RTW and bespoke suit. Can you explain why?
[tonyg] I would say that the labour of sewing in welts ,soles and lasts is quite a bit more extensive as there is a lot of strength needed, and i would also think that there is a higher risk of scrapping fittings and finished shoes and starting again, the markup on bespoke is about the same as any other retails garment at 90% but this also covers a lot of remakes.
[bengal-stripe] Should a bal (oxford) close edge to edge or show tongue cleavage?
[tonyg] An Oxford should show 1/4 inch gap at the top of the instep. If it closes all the way there is no flexibility for when your feet change due to cold or heat.
[Jona] Tony, you said you prefer aesthetics over fit, but how difficult to make a compromise? There are tricks to make a flat feet look good in a strongly beveled shoes? And how is the "best" foot to work with?
[tonyg] It’s not that difficult t make the compromise, i just have to understand how far the customer is willing to go and if i am in doubt i will ask him, some craftsmen won't ask but i don't like guess work so it's best to be up front. A person with a flat arch can achieve a nice beveled waist by giving major arch support and holding up the arch, i did this for a client, he said it felt a little strange at first but liked it more than some other bespoke shoes when he got used to it.
[bengal-stripe] Tony, do you like traveling, is this a benefit or a burden that comes with the job?
[tonyg] Traveling is both, I have a love/hate relationship with it, most of the time I am too tired to enjoy my free time.
[bengal-stripe] You always have to drag lots of luggage around, samples etc.
[tonyg] Yes 3 cases, 2 BIG sample cases and my own case and they weigh a ton!
[lancepryor] Tony, how is the new EG facility working out? Do you have more space for your bespoke operations?
[tonyg] Yes I have much more space and light, I just can't find the time to re-organize everything.
[tonyg] Generally the whole factory is much more spacious and it is very modern so it feels a much comfortable place to work even if we have compromised the character of an old factory.
[lancepryor] In an earlier response, you mentioned closing. I would have assumed that you are not doing closing yourself. Is that right?
[tonyg] I do a little closing when I get time, I love to use a closing machine and also play around with it to see how fine I can get the stitching, I learned how to close when I worked in Cheaney's years ago and I close a pair once in a blue moon just in case I forget .
[tonyg] I can just about make a pair all through but very rarely find the time to do so, when I decide to do it, I normally make a pair for myself rather than a customer.
[lancepryor] So, aside from Tony, where will the next generation of true master shoemakers come from?
[bengal-stripe] I think if someone gives bespoke shoes a shot in the arm that will last for thirty years or so.
[tonyg] I'll be honest and say that a lot of the out workers are sensing that there will be quite a few changes in the near future and most of them are looking at me to continue it 1/ because of my age and 2/ my standards.
[lancepryor] Yes, but we need competition to keep him on his toes!
[tonyg] There will be competition I think but it will change from what it is now.
[alden] Competition seems to be coming from Japan, and Europe.
[tonyg] Europe is a different look, there will always be a market for us both without taking too many orders off each other.
[alden] The best thing that could happen would be a surge in interest in bespoke so as to be able to keep the London outworkers busy and working and find and form new ones.
[tonyg] I think that what may happen is a sort out of the good and bad out workers, to get production out some bespoke shoemakers use high production outworkers and the quality is sub standard, these out workers can give the trade a bad name and as the bespoke trade suffers the worst of the bunch will be given the push which will give the trade a chance to start again and rebuild there teams stronger, hopefully.
[lancepryor] Do you have any plans to train anyone in last making?
[tonyg] Not yet, last making is hard I have to choose a person who can think for himself, not just follow instructions. There are no real rules to last making, which makes it hard to learn.
[tonyg] I have to go guys, enjoy your weekend.
[alden] Tony thanks again.
[alden] It has been a real pleasure, glad you could come.
tonyg enters this room
[alden] Welcome Tony
[alden] How are things up North, Tony?
[tonyg] Very wet, don't you love the English summer?
[alden] I would very much like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to join us.
[tonyg] It is my pleasure.
[alden] Your availability, Tony, has been of such great value to all our Members and Guests. And the pictures of your works show how well you are able to work with your customers to make some splendid objects.
[tonyg] In case you read a post concerning an 83 last, I would just like to confirm that there is no such last.
[alden] But, there is an 82 last and it is simply the nicest, most elegant round- toe on the market today...Congrats to you and to EG!
[alden] Tony I would like to start off some questions for you. I would like to ask Tony to tell us a bit about his process of working with clients, the consultative phase, some of the works from Mr. Hayes have been superb. What is the process that leads to such works?
[tonyg] Mr. Hayes really makes me work hard but I enjoy it all the more. There are many things involved in the process, the first one is to make sure that the shoes fit obviously and then we can go on to extreme designs and proportion. Communication and dedication to the client is the most important. The customer also comes from many different angles, some know what they want, and others tell me what function they need to use the shoes for. Then I advise, and with clients like Mr. Hayes we design the shoes together. Certain feet are suitable only to particular shoes and if the style does not suit the foot then I will simply advise to choose otherwise, if the customer insists then i will work harder to make the shoe right for his foot
[bengal-stripe] Is the majority of bespoke customers shoe literate or even shoe interested?
[tonyg]The customers that are shoe literate represent about 30% of all customers.
[alden] Bengal-stripe, when you say shoe literate do you mean technical aspects or styling aspects?
[bengal-stripe] I mean it more in styling aspects and also knowing what can, and what cannot be done
[tonyg] I am referring to the technical aspects.
[tonyg] A lot of customers, even designers, do not know what is practical and can be done. Unfortunately most designers only learn about one side of the product, the drawing side. Not many at all know how a welt is sewn in or a sole stitched. But customers do know about fit and proportions.
[bengal-stripe] When you make a (commercial) last, like 82 I presume, you make only one prototype in size 8 or so. Is the sizing up and down (size 5 – 13) and different fittings done by computer these days.
[tonyg] Yes it's done by computer and is called “grading.”
[T4phage] A question regarding side elastics! In the EG whole cut version, the Ringwood versus the more standard side elastics like the Kibworth, there is a seam on the standard side elastics, on the forefoot. Does the lack of a built in flexion point affect the Ringwood?
[tonyg] The Ringwood would simply crease more across the front, other than that, no.
[spinola] Tony, have you changed direction since leaving Cleverley? I notice that your shoes look, let's say a little sharper than the Cleverley shoes I've seen.
[tonyg] Yes very much so. I would like to think that they are a more modern classic
[lancepryor] Tony, if you've not done so, could you briefly address the state of bespoke shoemaking in the UK? How do you feel about its future, the availability of quality craftsmen, etc.
[tonyg] Do you want the honest answer or the kind one?
[lancepryor] The honest answer!
[tonyg] UK bespoke I think is suffering and pound for pound I would rate some of the European bespoke makers slightly better (present company excepted of course) Its all to do with production levels, fortunately mine are very low so its easy for me to produce the quality required.
[lancepryor] So, in your opinion is it a challenge of finding the right craftsmen, as opposed to a challenge of customer demand?
[tonyg] No the challenge is for the shoemaker to have a good system and be completely dedicated to his customers, the sole makers and closing craft is fine
[tonyg] We need more dedicated people like you Lance
[andreybokhanko] There is only limited number of well-known bespoke shoemakers in England: Lobb, Cleverley, N&L, Green and... that's basically all. Tony, what do you see in the future? That is, is there a future for bespoke shoemaking in England? These companies... Do they have training programs or just trying to survive?
[tonyg] That’s a difficult one. It really depends on who is able to push the quality up, you guys are becoming more educated in the product which means we have to work harder for perfection. There is definitely a future for bespoke in the UK but I fear that the present situation may be quite mixed up within the next 5-10 years. My aim is to keep consistency and customer service as high as possible.
[Jona] Tony, in which part of shoemaking you are currently more involved? And which part do you prefer?
[tonyg] Last making, pattern cutting, closing, measuring, and alterations all equal. I prefer pattern cutting as it represents most of the design side.
[Jona] With pattern cutting, you mean the shaping of the last? Or it is the cutting of the leather?
[tonyg] No I mean cutting the proportions of the upper style.
[manton] Tony, there seems to be two schools of design for bespoke shoes. One is to make the most elegant last possible, using a little artifice here and there. The other is to make the last conform as exactly as possible to the shape the foot, even if it is somewhat odd. Do you agree and which do you prefer?
[tonyg] The service is for the customer so if he prefers shape over fit then I will veer more towards the aesthetics and fit is priority then I will still try to give good aesthetics but concentrate more on the fit, i prefer aesthetics. I love design and creation. Even though a monk shoe is a monk shoe, in bespoke, all is individual.
[bengal-stripe] With trainers or sneakers as footwear of choice for most young guys shouldn’t the footwear industry do more to promote “proper shoes can be fun” Berluti does it, but does anyone else? Do you think the footwear industry fails?
[tonyg] I think that’s also a matter for the NHS (UK “National Health Service”.) Some young people’s feet are appalling as a result of bad footwear.
[charle22] Tony, specifically what do mean when referring to "fitting"; also, when is your next NYC visit and venue.
[tonyg] A fitting is when I make the shoes to a half way stage and the customer tries them on to make sure the last is correct, I will post me NYC schedule in the shoes section next week.
[lancepryor] Tony, would you talk describe more about the crust leather EG use.
[tonyg] The crusts are made quite simply in much the same way as a lining leather is made. First for EG is the matter of selection. Out of 100 skins EG may see they will accept one. They are then simply drummed and dyed to the base color. The rest is done in the factory.
[lancepryor] But the skins are not veg tanned, are they? I assume they are alum tanned?
[tonyg] They are Chrome tanned.
[andreybokhanko] Thanks. There is much interest in East Europe bespoke shoemaking lately (esp. Hungary and Poland). Besides England, USA and Austria, what countries have tradition of making high-class bespoke shoes for men? What about Russia?
[tonyg] Paris, Italy(Gatto) I'm not sure about Russia but i know there are some excellent shoemakers in Japan.
[spinola] Tony, in what way are bespoke shoes superior to trainers as far as the health of the foot is concerned? My intuition would suggest that whilst the former will provide superior support, this may be at the expense of circulation.
[tonyg] You are correct in your assumption about support but also absorption and balance. But I do not think a bespoke shoe should reduce circulation.
[manton] I'm not asking for you to divulge margins or trade secrets. Really. But the cost differential between a bespoke shoe and top quality RTW shoe is much greater than that between a top RTW and bespoke suit. Can you explain why?
[tonyg] I would say that the labour of sewing in welts ,soles and lasts is quite a bit more extensive as there is a lot of strength needed, and i would also think that there is a higher risk of scrapping fittings and finished shoes and starting again, the markup on bespoke is about the same as any other retails garment at 90% but this also covers a lot of remakes.
[bengal-stripe] Should a bal (oxford) close edge to edge or show tongue cleavage?
[tonyg] An Oxford should show 1/4 inch gap at the top of the instep. If it closes all the way there is no flexibility for when your feet change due to cold or heat.
[Jona] Tony, you said you prefer aesthetics over fit, but how difficult to make a compromise? There are tricks to make a flat feet look good in a strongly beveled shoes? And how is the "best" foot to work with?
[tonyg] It’s not that difficult t make the compromise, i just have to understand how far the customer is willing to go and if i am in doubt i will ask him, some craftsmen won't ask but i don't like guess work so it's best to be up front. A person with a flat arch can achieve a nice beveled waist by giving major arch support and holding up the arch, i did this for a client, he said it felt a little strange at first but liked it more than some other bespoke shoes when he got used to it.
[bengal-stripe] Tony, do you like traveling, is this a benefit or a burden that comes with the job?
[tonyg] Traveling is both, I have a love/hate relationship with it, most of the time I am too tired to enjoy my free time.
[bengal-stripe] You always have to drag lots of luggage around, samples etc.
[tonyg] Yes 3 cases, 2 BIG sample cases and my own case and they weigh a ton!
[lancepryor] Tony, how is the new EG facility working out? Do you have more space for your bespoke operations?
[tonyg] Yes I have much more space and light, I just can't find the time to re-organize everything.
[tonyg] Generally the whole factory is much more spacious and it is very modern so it feels a much comfortable place to work even if we have compromised the character of an old factory.
[lancepryor] In an earlier response, you mentioned closing. I would have assumed that you are not doing closing yourself. Is that right?
[tonyg] I do a little closing when I get time, I love to use a closing machine and also play around with it to see how fine I can get the stitching, I learned how to close when I worked in Cheaney's years ago and I close a pair once in a blue moon just in case I forget .
[tonyg] I can just about make a pair all through but very rarely find the time to do so, when I decide to do it, I normally make a pair for myself rather than a customer.
[lancepryor] So, aside from Tony, where will the next generation of true master shoemakers come from?
[bengal-stripe] I think if someone gives bespoke shoes a shot in the arm that will last for thirty years or so.
[tonyg] I'll be honest and say that a lot of the out workers are sensing that there will be quite a few changes in the near future and most of them are looking at me to continue it 1/ because of my age and 2/ my standards.
[lancepryor] Yes, but we need competition to keep him on his toes!
[tonyg] There will be competition I think but it will change from what it is now.
[alden] Competition seems to be coming from Japan, and Europe.
[tonyg] Europe is a different look, there will always be a market for us both without taking too many orders off each other.
[alden] The best thing that could happen would be a surge in interest in bespoke so as to be able to keep the London outworkers busy and working and find and form new ones.
[tonyg] I think that what may happen is a sort out of the good and bad out workers, to get production out some bespoke shoemakers use high production outworkers and the quality is sub standard, these out workers can give the trade a bad name and as the bespoke trade suffers the worst of the bunch will be given the push which will give the trade a chance to start again and rebuild there teams stronger, hopefully.
[lancepryor] Do you have any plans to train anyone in last making?
[tonyg] Not yet, last making is hard I have to choose a person who can think for himself, not just follow instructions. There are no real rules to last making, which makes it hard to learn.
[tonyg] I have to go guys, enjoy your weekend.
[alden] Tony thanks again.
[alden] It has been a real pleasure, glad you could come.