Trousers

[alden]

All you have to do is type that keyword into the LL search and it will return you all the hundreds of posts I have written encouraging you all to wear more comfortable and flattering trousers. "Comfortable and Flattering", you say, "these must be diametrical opposites in a trouser. If it is flattering it cannot possibly be comfortable...etc."

And so, the envelope please...(drum roll)...The second place finish for most consistently poor after the shirt and shirt collar, and worst performance in a supporting role is..... the TROUSER! (Applause)

How many fine jackets have I seen in the last twenty years, ruined by iffy pants!

I am reminded of this fact because Old Henry has started a thread over on the Fans of Tailoring blog about drafting trouser patterns and you would do well to follow it.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/252173278564297/

"Now you have a pair of trousers that suit you, it will be easy for a good Italian trouser maker to reproduce them for you. They will take your trousers, and make a pattern that follows the design. In doing so, you will have the best of both worlds: English cutting and Italian sewing."

I wrote that to an LL member nearly fifteen years ago. I don't know if he followed my advice or not. But getting a solid trouser pattern made from a qualified maker is a bespoke style imperative.

For those if you who are new to the LL, search the archives and read all that has been written on this subject and then come back ready to discuss it.

Cheers

[HristoStefanov]

I also think that the trousers are the key to a fine silhouette. Especially nowadays where a jacket is not a must anymore.
For that reason I commissioned a pair at Chittleborough & Morgan in November 2016 and after fittings in January 2017 and spring 2017, I picked up the ready trousers in December 2017. I chose C&M because I have seen some impressive trousers cut by them.
Unfortunately I left a little bit disappointed. I did not get the nice straight trouser line I hoped for. Of course they made decent trousers with a good fit, interesting style, and excellent finish. But I really wanted to achieve excellent silhouette and clean lines and this was not achieved. Which is especially sad as they cost 3,5 times more than a pair of bespoke trousers in Naples and I was traveling to Naples in the past anyways because of my shoe maker.
I have also seen a lot of mediocre trousers from otherwise excellent Italian tailors. This is maybe partly because a lot of Italian tailors outsource the trousers and concentrate on the jackets.

[bond_and_beyond]

I also think that the trousers are the key to a fine silhouette. Especially nowadays where a jacket is not a must anymore.
For that reason I commissioned a pair at Chittleborough & Morgan in November 2016 and after fittings in January 2017 and spring 2017, I picked up the ready trousers in December 2017. I chose C&M because I have seen some impressive trousers cut by them.
Unfortunately I left a little bit disappointed. I did not get the nice straight trouser line I hoped for. Of course they made decent trousers with a good fit, interesting style, and excellent finish. But I really wanted to achieve excellent silhouette and clean lines and this was not achieved. Which is especially sad as they cost 3,5 times more than a pair of bespoke trousers in Naples and I was traveling to Naples in the past anyways because of my shoe maker.
I have also seen a lot of mediocre trousers from otherwise excellent Italian tailors. This is maybe partly because a lot of Italian tailors outsource the trousers and concentrate on the jackets.

Do you have a photo? Would be interesting to see.

BB

[HristoStefanov]

https://instagram.com/p/Bd6C3aslRg6/

[old henry]

They look pretty darn good to me. The rise is great.
What don't you like about them ?
If you insist on a trim silouettte with pleats.....
But I like them.

[HristoStefanov]

They are good. But I hoped to have less breaks and wrinkles when they are freshly pressed.
I think I have slightly ( ) shaped legs and maybe this is what makes it challenging.
On this photo as the trousers are not freshly pressed, this hides the imperfections.
And I am not sure if it is normal that the pleats open so much when standing.
I expected more the clean lines as demonstrated by Michael (on the right):
https://instagram.com/p/BFBY3FshRiR/

[HristoStefanov]

I love the high rise.
The pleats and the turn ups were style recommendation of the tailor (the trousers are pretty much the house style of C&M).

[alden]

Hristo

I have to agree with you and I would be disappointed as well. I think it is the house style that is amiss. And Old Henry made something pretty clear, why "insist on a trim silhouette with pleats?" Those trousers could only look the way they do because of the way they were conceived.

When I saw your picture I immediately thought of the high rise jeans I commissioned from a tailor in Japan a few years ago.

RIMG0002 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

The cut is almost identical except that your dress trouser has pleats. And the cut looks great as a jean. And it would look good as a casual trouser in many fabrics. But your slim trouser does not look great. Make that house style in denim and wear it with boot minus the pleats. Very nice look. But yours is not a dress trouser pattern.

You are going to have to accept a bit more fullness when you want to wear pleats, fullness up top and a bit more fullness in the legs. A great traditional pleated dress trouser has a cone shape, not parallel lines. (There is a ton written about this on the LL. You might want to search it out.)

The cuffs can remain as they are and so can the rise. Everything else, and especially the pleats has to go, it has to have a different shape and line altogether.

Unless you are happy to wear pleated jeans with your nice jackets.

And I do not agree that the trouser in the picture is a good example either. Maybe a bit more rigid cloth hides the defects you see in your own pair. The pattern is at fault.

Cheers

[old henry]

If you like that style, hristo, you might ask your tailor to give you a sewn in pleat like Oxxford does. The extra cloth of a pleat is given to the pant (I'm guessing no more than 3/4" ) but it is sewn up like a dart instead of folding to one side. With a pant as trim as this you should not have pleats but It seems from their photos that what you have is what your tailor intend.
As Michael says if you want a jean cut avoid pleats. I think without the pleats they'd be cool pants.
But they are very wearable.

[Frans]

Just for your information, C&M have a fairly slim model of trousers without pleats and with frog pockets too.

From what I can see I would say your trousers need a good pressing
The crease has almost disappeared?

Chittleborough & Morgan certainly use much more effort in their trouser making than anyone else on SR.
They manipulate the cloth intensively before sewing. The trouser legs are S-shaped thus following the legs' line. The bands and band stiffeners are cut & made for each and every customer, even the sewing of the long seams is done by hand. Mr. Morgan thinks a machine is so brutal that trouser makers won't get a feeling for a clean line
Morgan seems to be convinced that it is best to stick to old traditions, no matter how time consuming.

Here's a pic of the shaping during the trouser making process. They explain why they do so (scroll down a little in the text): https://www.instagram.com/p/BY2_GysBnr1 ... handmorgan

A finished pair of trousers, picture by C&M:



I own an identical pair thats holds it shape extremely well. It's a 20 oz Dugdale cavalry twill. It's the most comfortable pair I own, worth every penny, I cannot compare them to any other pair. Yes, Hristo, the pleats are a little open during wear.
It's a very British style and it results in a quite masculine look, stressing the long lines of your body, even more so with a matching waist coat. Neapolitan trousers are a very different style and product (and should not be compared in my opinion).

However, any pair of trousers will lose its shape after some wear, esp. around the knees. Flannel trousers won't keep their shape as well as the above pair. My cotton trousers need repressing almost after every wear.

What cloth are your trousers made of, Hristo? You haven't spoken to C&M since you picked up your pair, have you?
Mr. Morgan is a very dedicated, yet humble man. His motto is "we can always do better"

[davidhuh]

Dear Hristo,

looking at Frans' picture is helpful in my eyes. This is indeed a wonderful cut and a great pair of trousers. Looking at your pair, there are a few things I would change though.
- Most important: wear braces please. They keep your trousers sitting where they should.
- I would recommend a slightly fuller leg.
- Replacing the pleats with a dart: this could be an option, but not mandatory
- Brush and press your trousers after wearing them. Unless you want that rumpled look.

Talking with your tailor as Frans is suggesting, is always a good idea.

Cheers, David

[Melcombe]

I must say I do like Frans's trousers.

David's advice on braces is entirely sound. I have a pair of trousers (in a far more 'easy' cut w single pleat) in Dugdale's splendid cavalry twill. Mine are fawn as well.

The original design had turn-ups, which proved a mistake : they were so heavy that even with braces, they had a noticeable heft; perhaps a slimmer cut would have saved on weight.

The turn-ups had to go - to my tailor's delight - he had said 'are you sure' rather emphatically when we were commissioning them, so couldn't hide a grin when I brought them in for a bit of editing.

CT makes a most comfortable and practical pair of trousers. A firm foundation to avoid "iffy pant" syndrome perhaps?

[HristoStefanov]

Frans, I actually showed to Joe and Francis (Francis cut mine) the photo of your trousers when I commissioned mine
I really like this S-shape. Mine also look nice in profile.
The fabric is heavy flannel from Minnis.
I haven't been in London since I picked them a month ago. I am sure that the next pair will be much better. I just hoped that they will be perfect from the first pair. I guess I had unrealistically high expectations for a first iteration.

[alden]

I would really like to get into Pussy Galore's pants.

maxresdefault by The London Lounge, on Flickr

And now I know where to go on Savile Row to get a pair made.

But those of you who want to appear "British" and masculine would do well to copy the trousers of the man standing next to her instead.

Cheers

[old henry]

Yes , Michael , we must keep in mind that , along with looking "spiffy" , we must also walk and sit in our trousers. Sean Connery has got the right idea. Room to breathe.