Old tailors, old cloth

[Costi]

Perhaps he wanted to check the balance to make sure your posture did not defy the laws of statue-cs...

[Cravate Noire]

I love old cloth too, however it often usually disguises the inacbility of most tailors to draft a perfect pattern (these who actually need a fitting or several to get the fit right, not to give the client a chance to see if he wants stylistic changes).
It falls much nicer and therefore the suits look better and mistakes in the pattern can be "finished/ironed out" much better, than with most lightweight fabrics (escpecially those with relatively low wool content).

[alden]

I love old cloth too, however it often usually disguises the inacbility of most tailors to draft a perfect pattern (these who actually need a fitting or several to get the fit right, not to give the client a chance to see if he wants stylistic changes).

Heavy cloth is easier for a tailor to work. It can take a lot of steam and iron work that allows the tailor to work wonders (if he is good.) And I suppose it is possible that there are tailors out there who use it as a crutch, but I would think (or hope) they are a small minority.

Clients who have distinct ideas about stylistic issues need to make those clear before the cloth is cut and at the first fitting when changes can still be easily made. If you start wanting to make styling changes at a second fitting you will earn the ire of any tailor.

And here is a good piece of advice, lose the word "perfect." There is no such thing as a perfect pattern, perfect fit or perfect coat. Every hand crafted work requires a series of compromises, like virtually an work of art. I think the Italians have a good expression "meglio di questo...! "you can't do better than that." That's about as excited a comment that you'll get from a good tailor. If a tailor tells you he has crafted perfection, watch out!

Cheers

[Costi]

It is just as difficult for tailors to work with thin superfines as it is for the weavers to manufacture them. However, this extra difficulty adds no value to the final product from the point of view of the customer. In other words, the tailor is not supposed to focus his energies on taming a difficult and unresponsive cloth and the weaver is not supposed to focus on weaving spiderwebs – it is a wasted effort, that only has a technical merit, like a mere bravura aria that has no melody and makes no musical sense, being there only to display the singer’s capacity to take high notes and the composer’s ability to write devilishly complicated parts. That is not what Paganini did with his violin…
The tailor is a dimensional magician who takes a piece of cloth that is created in a 2D world and updates it to the full 3D reality of our bodies. And a pair of tainted lens glasses, as in a 3D cinema, doesn't do this trick... It’s not that some tailors are unable to “cut a perfect pattern” – they are not supposed to, either, because cloth needs to be worked with iron and steam, molded, pulled, stretched and beaten into a 3D shape. It’s not a pretty picture – it’s a dirty job
Working with a cloth that doesn’t respond to such treatment means the tailor has to do everything with shears and needle, and it is both possible and difficult, but the results are not the same, the cloth will not “hug” the body like a subtantial cloth that lends itself to real tailoring work and it won’t hang and drape like a heavy cloth.
And if one, as a customer, understands the disadvantages of lightweight cloth (poor workability, terrible drape, airtight weave, insubstantial in cold weather, too delicate to be worn without concern for durability), one will never even put his tailor through the ordeal of working with such fabrics for the mere pride of the pointless technical difficulty.
I know haircutters who can give you a haircut using nothing but a shaving blade held between their naked fingers. Without a steady hand, there is the danger of going too deep and making an uneven cut, not to speak of the danger of cutting skin or ears. But subjecting yourself to this treatment, even if the result is perfect, means half an hour of the blade constantly pulling at your hairs, so a sore scalp, plus all your hairs will split at the tips because they are cut on a slant. So who needs bravura?!

[Cravate Noire]

It is just as difficult for tailors to work with thin superfines as it is for the weavers to manufacture them. However, this extra difficulty adds no value to the final product from the point of view of the customer. In other words, the tailor is not supposed to focus his energies on taming a difficult and unresponsive cloth and the weaver is not supposed to focus on weaving spiderwebs – it is a wasted effort, that only has a technical merit, like a mere bravura aria that has no melody and makes no musical sense, being there only to display the singer’s capacity to take high notes and the composer’s ability to write devilishly complicated parts. That is not what Paganini did with his violin…
The tailor is a dimensional magician who takes a piece of cloth that is created in a 2D world and updates it to the full 3D reality of our bodies. And a pair of tainted lens glasses, as in a 3D cinema, doesn't do this trick... It’s not that some tailors are unable to “cut a perfect pattern” – they are not supposed to, either, because cloth needs to be worked with iron and steam, molded, pulled, stretched and beaten into a 3D shape. It’s not a pretty picture – it’s a dirty job
Working with a cloth that doesn’t respond to such treatment means the tailor has to do everything with shears and needle, and it is both possible and difficult, but the results are not the same, the cloth will not “hug” the body like a subtantial cloth that lends itself to real tailoring work and it won’t hang and drape like a heavy cloth.
And if one, as a customer, understands the disadvantages of lightweight cloth (poor workability, terrible drape, airtight weave, insubstantial in cold weather, too delicate to be worn without concern for durability), one will never even put his tailor through the ordeal of working with such fabrics for the mere pride of the pointless technical difficulty.
I know haircutters who can give you a haircut using nothing but a shaving blade held between their naked fingers. Without a steady hand, there is the danger of going too deep and making an uneven cut, not to speak of the danger of cutting skin or ears. But subjecting yourself to this treatment, even if the result is perfect, means half an hour of the blade constantly pulling at your hairs, so a sore scalp, plus all your hairs will split at the tips because they are cut on a slant. So who needs bravura?!

The point is, that difficult cloths need a more refined incorporation of the clients body shape into the cut.
So many guys on the fora drool about suits on photos from the 50s and 60s, but they don't take into account that it's easy to make these seeming flawless lines with super heavy, hart as nails fabrics.
I think I have no garments in such superfine fabrics btw. as I am not a fan (well maybe a few, note that short ironing etc. is also much more difficult on very hard woven fabrics with low wool content!), that is just an observatio.



Michael,
with "perfect pattern" I mean the ability to do what the old "rare as pearls" tailors do, no or only fitting and the item fits, sorry I was pretty imprecise there (I have someone like that btw. but as far as I got it's rather about).
That you do not judge exact and super refined execution as the most important aspect of tailoring, or at least much less important than stylistically perfect balance etc. can be seen very well in some of your photos (what makes much more sense IMHO than the other way round, I have a friend who is obsessed by the quality of handwork, but many of his bespoke jackets have ill cut armholes, bizarre hanging sleeves and a collar that says "ciao" when he moves his arms...doesnt help that it's hand..blabla then).

[Costi]

The point is, that difficult cloths need a more refined incorporation of the clients body shape into the cut.

Thanks for the conclusion to your discourse, CN, but MY point is that such a point is rather pointless, as asserted above...

[Costi]

So many guys on the fora drool about suits on photos from the 50s and 60s, but they don't take into account that it's easy to make these seeming flawless lines with super heavy, hart as nails fabrics.

If it's so easy, why bother with the flimsy superfines anyway?!
But I'm afraid working with REAL cloth is not easier, it just employs a different set of techniques... as in my haircutting parallel.

[alden]

That you do not judge exact and super refined execution as the most important aspect of tailoring, or at least much less important than stylistically perfect balance etc. can be seen very well in some of your photos

CN,

You are trickier than a Philadelphia lawyer. I absolutely expect and receive "exact and super refined execution" from my tailors. But excellent execution and "perfection" are two very different things. You have to be perfect yourself to demand perfection from a tailor. And very few of us have perfect physiques. So a tailor has to choose how to reconcile a client's style with his inherent imperfection. The great ones can do it but they never achieve perfection.

Michael

[trulhaug]

Yesterday I met a 75 year old Italian tailor who thinks he is an English one.

When I walked into the door of the atelier and saw the stacks of great cloth I knew I was on to something. “I am passionate about fabrics and I prefer to use vintage English cloth I have collected since the 1960s”, the tailor said. And there it was before my eyes, old 21 ozs Reid & Taylor worsteds (the "Bronze Eagle") from that era, old heavyweight Sportex, thick flannels and assorted traditional cloth from UK mills long since closed down. It was a textile gold mine and museum. “Inferior cloth or even standard cloth will melt under my iron. It doesn't hold up to the work I give it”, he continued, as we went into his atelier and I lifted the heaviest damn iron I have ever seen! "Now you see why I like heavy English cloth! Italian cloth fades away, except for some by Zegna."

The retired tailor makes for a short list of older clients. "I worked most of my life in Milan and studied with many Italian masters, but I think of myself as being an English tailor. The English cutting style I learned as a boy is superior to any other, including our own Italian system", he added. "Of course I can make any kind of clothes, but I prefer to make clothes without any shoulder padding or structure whatsoever.It is much harder to do well and you have to know how to cut it right, but the clothes that result are so very comfortable and elegant." And then I felt a few coats in my hand an frankly have to confess they were naturally inviting. Neapolitan clothing suddenly felt like clunky armor. A coat made for a well known Italian male model was almost my size and I gave the heavy shetland gun club a try on. Nice.

The spalla camicia on display on various coats was the most simple and unaffected I have seen and the quality of the handwork was excellent. "I make the shirt shoulder mainly for odd coats in linen or cotton, and I make a open seam shoulder for suits and formal wear."

To say the least, yesterdays surprise visit was a very pleasant surprise.

Cheers

Michael Alden

I went back to the thread "Old Reid and Taylor suiting" from 2008 in the LL showing very nice pictures. It was disclosed that some of the machines were destroyed and a remaking of the 21 oz would be difficult? More tailors sitting on some old cloth? You mentioned in the post from february this year that you were working on a similar new cloth? Could you give us a short update?

[alden]

More tailors sitting on some old cloth? You mentioned in the post from february this year that you were working on a similar new cloth? Could you give us a short update?

Yes tailors with stocks of old cloth. I did complete my test of a cloth similar to a vintage R&T in a gray herringbone. It turned out very well. I will arrange for pictures to be made soon.

Michael

[Cravate Noire]

That you do not judge exact and super refined execution as the most important aspect of tailoring, or at least much less important than stylistically perfect balance etc. can be seen very well in some of your photos

CN,

You are trickier than a Philadelphia lawyer. I absolutely expect and receive "exact and super refined execution" from my tailors. But excellent execution and "perfection" are two very different things. You have to be perfect yourself to demand perfection from a tailor. And very few of us have perfect physiques. So a tailor has to choose how to reconcile a client's style with his inherent imperfection. The great ones can do it but they never achieve perfection.

Michael

Hehe, maybe I should switch to law .
Whether one's physique is difficult or not (someone extremely overweight will not look like Adonis just because he starts using a bespoke tailor, sure), a breast pocket with blunted edges for instance, is a thing of beautie (and of rarity).
As long as it does not look like bitten by mice!

But I can be a pain on the net, I know

[cathach]

Whether one's physique is difficult or not (someone extremely overweight will not look like Adonis just because he starts using a bespoke tailor, sure), a breast pocket with blunted edges for instance, is a thing of beautie (and of rarity).
As long as it does not look like bitten by mice!

But I can be a pain on the net, I know

Au contraire, my mother's reaction to my first bespoke was a wonderful example of an Irish mother in action 'You know, it makes you look thinner than you are'!

[old henry]

They don't do cloth like that anymore...
They don't do tailoring like that anymore...
They don't do customers like that anymore...

Yes Costi , I agree with you.. Todays customers are a far cry from the old.
Humble , Respectful customers are hard to find these days.

[Cravate Noire]

Whether one's physique is difficult or not (someone extremely overweight will not look like Adonis just because he starts using a bespoke tailor, sure), a breast pocket with blunted edges for instance, is a thing of beautie (and of rarity).
As long as it does not look like bitten by mice!

But I can be a pain on the net, I know

Au contraire, my mother's reaction to my first bespoke was a wonderful example of an Irish mother in action 'You know, it makes you look thinner than you are'!

Simple and without pain: Pics or it didnt happen.
Also, lookign a bit less unhealthy is something different than looking like and Olympic medal winner...

[Costi]

They don't do cloth like that anymore...
They don't do tailoring like that anymore...
They don't do customers like that anymore...

Yes Costi , I agree with you.. Todays customers are a far cry from the old.
Humble , Respectful customers are hard to find these days.

Thank you! Perhaps humbleness and respect come with deeper knowledge: of oneself, of others.
"Little knowledge drives you away from God; much knowledge brings you to Him."
(from some saint? no, from Louis Pasteur...)