Life on a farm in rural Scotland is radically casual, largely because I have to navigate a sea of mud even to get to my car in the morning. The upside has been a welcome opportunity to enjoy heavy knitwear (thick donegal sweaters, chunky camel-hair cardigans, Canadian hand-knits), heavy Japanese denim from Iron Heart and Full Count, and Alden 'Indy' boots or Aigle wellies. These are things that one couldn't comfortably wear in London's over-heated environments. My brother once joked that in the country a man only needs two pairs of shoes - slippers for inside and wellies for outside.
I always wear a shirt under my sweater, and look forward to dinners a deux in Edinburgh when I can put on tailored clothing. It turns out that social events in the county, however, are not opportunities to get dressed up - jackets and ties are sadly very rarely worn. Although I must admit that I'm never comfortable in a tweed jacket in the evening. If I'm dressing for dinner I only ever feel comfortable in a dark suit.
The role of bespoke in a relaxed environment
Life in Amsterdam is as informal as can be. Only around the business centers does one see suits, but ties are often absent.
Wearing my favourite suit for the season, in the LL Thornproof, makes me stand out like little else. It is both the fit and the cloth that make this a unique look in our streets. Is it city-appropriate? Maybe not. But it is just too nice to let it hang in the closet and the complements I get are nice for the ego.
Given how casual most are dressed and how many different styles of dress one sees nowadays, countryside clothing in the city feels less conspicuous than it has done in the past, I guess.
Wearing my favourite suit for the season, in the LL Thornproof, makes me stand out like little else. It is both the fit and the cloth that make this a unique look in our streets. Is it city-appropriate? Maybe not. But it is just too nice to let it hang in the closet and the complements I get are nice for the ego.
Given how casual most are dressed and how many different styles of dress one sees nowadays, countryside clothing in the city feels less conspicuous than it has done in the past, I guess.
Alarming news of the international scale of casual dressing at work ! I suspect that forecasting the demise of the suit is a little premature however.
I have noticed that while while dressing down in the boardroom has a bit of traction in some industries, there are still plenty of situations where dressing formally is seen as a token of respect to those that you are meeting - and is usually appreciated. In any case, carrying off being overdressed is much easier than the reverse.
Perhaps another consideration is whether your working role is to be part of a team or whether you are a sole practitioner in your career. In the latter case, it is surely much easier to express individuality by wearing a suit when everyone else is wearing polo shirts.
I'm also not sure that dressing down makes for much of a relaxed working environment. I've noticed that management who studiously dress down are rarely less autocratic than besuited boardroom types. In IT companies particularly, some folk have the Jobs / Zuckerberg wardrobe right - and certainly Mr Jobs's famously short fuse; but they invariably lack his vision.
As for feeling relaxed at play-time, few things makes the heart sink lower than the oxymoronic "smart casual" dress code on a social invitation. I now treat these sorts of event as an opportunity to dress properly; I then end up talking to everyone else wearing a blazer (or well-chosen dress). Strange that.
I have noticed that while while dressing down in the boardroom has a bit of traction in some industries, there are still plenty of situations where dressing formally is seen as a token of respect to those that you are meeting - and is usually appreciated. In any case, carrying off being overdressed is much easier than the reverse.
Perhaps another consideration is whether your working role is to be part of a team or whether you are a sole practitioner in your career. In the latter case, it is surely much easier to express individuality by wearing a suit when everyone else is wearing polo shirts.
I'm also not sure that dressing down makes for much of a relaxed working environment. I've noticed that management who studiously dress down are rarely less autocratic than besuited boardroom types. In IT companies particularly, some folk have the Jobs / Zuckerberg wardrobe right - and certainly Mr Jobs's famously short fuse; but they invariably lack his vision.
As for feeling relaxed at play-time, few things makes the heart sink lower than the oxymoronic "smart casual" dress code on a social invitation. I now treat these sorts of event as an opportunity to dress properly; I then end up talking to everyone else wearing a blazer (or well-chosen dress). Strange that.
A number of interesting questions and equally interesting responses here, I think.
I hope my $ 0.02 will not figure too poorly among them.
On the issue of formality and elegance in relation to one’s peers / surroundings, even if one chooses the path of least resistance of not sticking out too much, I think one level up in the styles stakes should be acceptable and not draw undue opprobrium from the slovenly majority? I, personally, might go one step further and say that if the average continues to fall, I would gladly accept remaining where I am even at the risk of slowly becoming increasingly separate from the mass. In other words, if people start wearing just yoga clothes and pyjamas in London, I’m not going to only ever wear jeans and polo shirts to be no farther than ‘one level up’.
But back to reality
The case that was mentioned was a rural or suburban area. I think that as a start a man should be able to wear a clearly country-coloured tweed/flannel jacket and country-style brogues (or other suitably rugged footwear), dark jeans (sic) and a shirt without people openly staring?
The other thing to consider, for suit aficionados, is that a boldly checked suit of the sort we’ve grown to love in the 1930s fashion plates wears much more casually than a City charcoal pinstripe, etc. I recognise that if all the neighbours only wear gym clothes and such, any suit will stick out, though.
Or, yet another, more extreme tack; I know many distinguished posters here strongly dislike the appearance of ‘costume’, in their elegant attire. For myself, I have noticed that where perhaps some times a man just exquisitely dressed in a ‘modern’ suit/shirt/tie ensemble (one, say that would go unnoticed ion a CBD/City) might generate more of a reaction (“Are you off to work?” “Do you have an interview?” “Why are you dressed up?”), away from business surroundings, than someone who goes whole-hog retro insofar as the latter mode might be more likely to be correctly interpreted as a personal quirk / preference and therefore, however eccentric, basically OK.
Hope I have rambled on too much…
I hope my $ 0.02 will not figure too poorly among them.
On the issue of formality and elegance in relation to one’s peers / surroundings, even if one chooses the path of least resistance of not sticking out too much, I think one level up in the styles stakes should be acceptable and not draw undue opprobrium from the slovenly majority? I, personally, might go one step further and say that if the average continues to fall, I would gladly accept remaining where I am even at the risk of slowly becoming increasingly separate from the mass. In other words, if people start wearing just yoga clothes and pyjamas in London, I’m not going to only ever wear jeans and polo shirts to be no farther than ‘one level up’.
But back to reality
The case that was mentioned was a rural or suburban area. I think that as a start a man should be able to wear a clearly country-coloured tweed/flannel jacket and country-style brogues (or other suitably rugged footwear), dark jeans (sic) and a shirt without people openly staring?
The other thing to consider, for suit aficionados, is that a boldly checked suit of the sort we’ve grown to love in the 1930s fashion plates wears much more casually than a City charcoal pinstripe, etc. I recognise that if all the neighbours only wear gym clothes and such, any suit will stick out, though.
Or, yet another, more extreme tack; I know many distinguished posters here strongly dislike the appearance of ‘costume’, in their elegant attire. For myself, I have noticed that where perhaps some times a man just exquisitely dressed in a ‘modern’ suit/shirt/tie ensemble (one, say that would go unnoticed ion a CBD/City) might generate more of a reaction (“Are you off to work?” “Do you have an interview?” “Why are you dressed up?”), away from business surroundings, than someone who goes whole-hog retro insofar as the latter mode might be more likely to be correctly interpreted as a personal quirk / preference and therefore, however eccentric, basically OK.
Hope I have rambled on too much…
...The case that was mentioned was a rural or suburban area. I think that as a start a man should be able to wear a clearly country-coloured tweed/flannel jacket and country-style brogues (or other suitably rugged footwear), dark jeans (sic) and a shirt without people openly staring?
The other thing to consider, for suit aficionados, is that a boldly checked suit of the sort we’ve grown to love in the 1930s fashion plates wears much more casually than a City charcoal pinstripe, etc...
For me the difficulty with wearing a suit arrives when ones adds a tie. A suit does not look quite right wearing an open necked shirt with a suit. The alternatives are polo neck jumpers and polo shirts, although they tend to wear warm.I have not got any further with this one. I have several very lovely checked tweed suits that do not get any much wear as they might and I often wear the jackets only. Any sensible suggestions are welcome, i.e. NOT just wear a tie anyway!!!
The other thing to consider, for suit aficionados, is that a boldly checked suit of the sort we’ve grown to love in the 1930s fashion plates wears much more casually than a City charcoal pinstripe, etc...
For me the difficulty with wearing a suit arrives when ones adds a tie. A suit does not look quite right wearing an open necked shirt with a suit. The alternatives are polo neck jumpers and polo shirts, although they tend to wear warm.I have not got any further with this one. I have several very lovely checked tweed suits that do not get any much wear as they might and I often wear the jackets only. Any sensible suggestions are welcome, i.e. NOT just wear a tie anyway!!!
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HristoStefanov
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Too much thinking about it is absolutely useless.
These stories about the tweed jacket, the casual suit, the brown suit are pretty much our archaic cultural view on what was "correct" to wear in the free time or outside of town 50 years ago.
The reality is, that jeans, t-shirt and a polyester or cotton jacket with zip is the casual uniform of the majority of people both in and outside of town.
So when you put a suit or a tailored odd jacket, you are always going to look dressy and "polished" and you are not going to look "correct" or "casual".
So why would you care about what people 50 years ago thought was correct?
Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles. It is fine to wear a dark blue suit on Saturday or outside of town. Why not? In a bespoke dark blue suit you would look much better dressed than 99% of people. Who cares that it is Saturday.
And exactly the same way you may wear for example an orange suit to work on Tuesday. As long as it is not considered offending for your company, why not.
I remember Simon Crompton posted on instagram a photo of him wearing black tie on New Year Eve with a wing collar shirt. And many people complained under the photo:
"Bla bla bla wing collar is only for white tie bla bla bla".
And I was rolling on the floor laughing. Because Simon was maybe the best dressed guy at the event he attended and the discussion if the wing collar is correct or not was simply stupid.
It is the same with the discussion about a correct casual dress. Forget what is correct. Define it yourself.
These stories about the tweed jacket, the casual suit, the brown suit are pretty much our archaic cultural view on what was "correct" to wear in the free time or outside of town 50 years ago.
The reality is, that jeans, t-shirt and a polyester or cotton jacket with zip is the casual uniform of the majority of people both in and outside of town.
So when you put a suit or a tailored odd jacket, you are always going to look dressy and "polished" and you are not going to look "correct" or "casual".
So why would you care about what people 50 years ago thought was correct?
Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles. It is fine to wear a dark blue suit on Saturday or outside of town. Why not? In a bespoke dark blue suit you would look much better dressed than 99% of people. Who cares that it is Saturday.
And exactly the same way you may wear for example an orange suit to work on Tuesday. As long as it is not considered offending for your company, why not.
I remember Simon Crompton posted on instagram a photo of him wearing black tie on New Year Eve with a wing collar shirt. And many people complained under the photo:
"Bla bla bla wing collar is only for white tie bla bla bla".
And I was rolling on the floor laughing. Because Simon was maybe the best dressed guy at the event he attended and the discussion if the wing collar is correct or not was simply stupid.
It is the same with the discussion about a correct casual dress. Forget what is correct. Define it yourself.
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HristoStefanov
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In your eyes, brown, tweed, derby shoes, patched pockets ect look correct for leisure because you have seen so many photos and movies with them or you have witnessed your parents in your childhood dressing this way.
You are primed with certain "correct" looks.
But people on the street are not. They are not browsing blogs with old photos, they are not watching classical movies, they have not experienced their parents dressing well. So for them the combination of brown tweed with derby shoes means absolutely nothing. They will not take it as wrong if you wear oxford shoes instead of derby shoes. They would subconsciously judge your dress as either good or bad. This depends on if you have done a good job in combining colours and textures.
You are primed with certain "correct" looks.
But people on the street are not. They are not browsing blogs with old photos, they are not watching classical movies, they have not experienced their parents dressing well. So for them the combination of brown tweed with derby shoes means absolutely nothing. They will not take it as wrong if you wear oxford shoes instead of derby shoes. They would subconsciously judge your dress as either good or bad. This depends on if you have done a good job in combining colours and textures.
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raykalendek
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HristoStefanov, an exceedingly well thought-out, balanced, and rational argument...and one with which I happen to agree vigorously.HristoStefanov wrote:Too much thinking about it is absolutely useless.
These stories about the tweed jacket, the casual suit, the brown suit are pretty much our archaic cultural view on what was "correct" to wear in the free time or outside of town 50 years ago.
The reality is, that jeans, t-shirt and a polyester or cotton jacket with zip is the casual uniform of the majority of people both in and outside of town.
So when you put a suit or a tailored odd jacket, you are always going to look dressy and "polished" and you are not going to look "correct" or "casual".
So why would you care about what people 50 years ago thought was correct?
Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles. It is fine to wear a dark blue suit on Saturday or outside of town. Why not? In a bespoke dark blue suit you would look much better dressed than 99% of people. Who cares that it is Saturday.
And exactly the same way you may wear for example an orange suit to work on Tuesday. As long as it is not considered offending for your company, why not.
I remember Simon Crompton posted on instagram a photo of him wearing black tie on New Year Eve with a wing collar shirt. And many people complained under the photo:
"Bla bla bla wing collar is only for white tie bla bla bla".
And I was rolling on the floor laughing. Because Simon was maybe the best dressed guy at the event he attended and the discussion if the wing collar is correct or not was simply stupid.
It is the same with the discussion about a correct casual dress. Forget what is correct. Define it yourself.
Since when have men such as we, many who scour incessantly the markets of the world for the finest cloths and search for the most talented tailors to transform those cloths into our visions, begun to re-experience a blush of schoolboy self-consciousness over the possibility of being perceived as different from the common...dare I say the vulgar?
I do agree that there are circumstances, i.e. defined workplace dress codes, ceremonial events, etc., that demand adherence to standards; however, it's not well defined protocol that I feel that we're talking about here, but, instead, our everyday routines in the places that we make our lives.
Gentlemen, it's we who have taken up the sartorial trust (many of us, anyway). Is it not our obligation to take heed of and stand against the regrettable and hastening trends of automata, conformity, and "slobism?" Let us choose to follow a path whose wisdom seems sound while shunning that portent that would strip us of an already too thin veneer of civility, which is really all that exists as buffer between the encroachment of man's lack of respect for himself and the barbarousness that lies just beneath waiting patiently for an opportunity to reassert.
Please try to pardon what may seem to be rather over-stated and gratuitous passion, but I feel quite strongly about declining standards in...well most things. We are the sentinels of tomorrow. If not we, who?
I´m afraid I cannot agree.HristoStefanov wrote: Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles.....Forget what is correct. Define it yourself.
Limiting myself in colours, textures and styles according to an external set of rules challenges me more and makes me be more creative. I believe that the definition of "dressing well" in itself has implicit limitations and rules and it´s not given in an abstract environment.
Also, forgetting what is correct and go the way of defining it by yourself is extremely anti-social. I would say, keep in mind the rules and what´s expected as appropriate in the game and, above all, why. Then... you can -prudently and tastefully- challenge it.
I agree completely. The "rules" have gone, never to return. Not in our lifetimes, anyways. Dressing well, dressing in bespoke clothing, is a choice just as much and equally as valid a choice as dressing in jeans and a t-shirt. Worrying about levels of formality is a waste of time. Where I live, there are no levels, there is no formality. I dress to please myself and my wife. It pleases me to acquire knowledge about manners of dress and knowledge of cloth and tailoring. It has become a hobby of mine. It makes me happy.HristoStefanov wrote:Too much thinking about it is absolutely useless.
[...]
So when you put a suit or a tailored odd jacket, you are always going to look dressy and "polished" and you are not going to look "correct" or "casual".
So why would you care about what people 50 years ago thought was correct?
Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles. It is fine to wear a dark blue suit on Saturday or outside of town. Why not? In a bespoke dark blue suit you would look much better dressed than 99% of people. Who cares that it is Saturday.
And exactly the same way you may wear for example an orange suit to work on Tuesday. As long as it is not considered offending for your company, why not.
The best example I can give concerns wearing a dinner jacket. Many people lament that they have no occasion to wear black tie. I make those occasions. My wife and I go out to a nice restaurant, she dresses nicely and I wear a dinner jacket. When people ask me what the occasion is I reply "dinner". For that is all it is. We are our own arbiters of taste and style. We are, in fact, the new non-conformists. Neononconformists.
I think the only limits are the ones you choose to impose upon yourself, and that's a perfectly fine thing. I think that's the theme of this thread, in fact. We choose to live and dress by certain parameters that once may have had an independent cultural currency. But no longer. The decision to adhere to certain modes or principles, is ours and ours alone.hectorm wrote:I´m afraid I cannot agree.HristoStefanov wrote: Dress well without limiting yourself in colours, textures and styles.....Forget what is correct. Define it yourself.
Limiting myself in colours, textures and styles according to an external set of rules challenges me more and makes me be more creative. I believe that the definition of "dressing well" in itself has implicit limitations and rules and it´s not given in an abstract environment.
Also, forgetting what is correct and go the way of defining it by yourself is extremely anti-social. I would say, keep in mind the rules and what´s expected as appropriate in the game and, above all, why. Then... you can -prudently and tastefully- challenge it.
'...The best example I can give concerns wearing a dinner jacket. Many people lament that they have no occasion to wear black tie. I make those occasions. My wife and I go out to a nice restaurant, she dresses nicely and I wear a dinner jacket. When people ask me what the occasion is I reply "dinner". For that is all it is. We are our own arbiters of taste and style. We are, in fact, the new non-conformists. Neononconformists.'
All fine if you want to look like you are in a period drama.I think the true answer for me is somewhere in the middle. I agree there are no need for outdated rules about country clothes and city clothes, unless one tranposes these to muddy hiking boots and waterproofs. For me the first response probably is the closest to my own thoughts- a jacket/blazer, a few shirts, a suit if required and some trousers.
All fine if you want to look like you are in a period drama.I think the true answer for me is somewhere in the middle. I agree there are no need for outdated rules about country clothes and city clothes, unless one tranposes these to muddy hiking boots and waterproofs. For me the first response probably is the closest to my own thoughts- a jacket/blazer, a few shirts, a suit if required and some trousers.
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HristoStefanov
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It is not very difficult to wear a dinner jacket in the evening and not looking like in a period drama.arch wrote:'...The best example I can give concerns wearing a dinner jacket. Many people lament that they have no occasion to wear black tie. I make those occasions. My wife and I go out to a nice restaurant, she dresses nicely and I wear a dinner jacket. When people ask me what the occasion is I reply "dinner". For that is all it is. We are our own arbiters of taste and style. We are, in fact, the new non-conformists. Neononconformists.'
All fine if you want to look like you are in a period drama.
If you are alone - you may indeed sometimes look awkward. But if you are in a group of 4-6 people all dressed semi-formal and you are having fun, you can go virtually everywhere and this would look perfectly fine. You can always claim that it is your weekly James Bond style gathering.
For sure a couple of black tie outfits have place in one's modern wardrobe.
Here is an excellent example from Voxsartoria for a dinner jacket which has an extremely versatile colour and texture.
I could wear such jacket very often in the evenings:
http://www.voxsartoria.com/post/1100346 ... -museum-at
Gentlemen,
good to see some passion here
I have a lot of sympathy for everybody here. Once you have a nice dinner jacket, create occasions for wearing it, please do. It was not made to be eaten by moths in your closet, but for use and your pleasure. The Knize DJ is one very fine example of an unusual dinner coat that I would not hesitate a second to have it made.
But - the old saying "break the rules once you know them" applies to me. I am careful when I dress for the day, and do it in consideration of the occasion and the people I'm going to be with. When in Rome, do as the Romans do (but be yourself). This has never failed me
Cheers, David
good to see some passion here
I have a lot of sympathy for everybody here. Once you have a nice dinner jacket, create occasions for wearing it, please do. It was not made to be eaten by moths in your closet, but for use and your pleasure. The Knize DJ is one very fine example of an unusual dinner coat that I would not hesitate a second to have it made.
But - the old saying "break the rules once you know them" applies to me. I am careful when I dress for the day, and do it in consideration of the occasion and the people I'm going to be with. When in Rome, do as the Romans do (but be yourself). This has never failed me
Cheers, David
Ah; I think there is some element of “talking past each other” in some of these otherwise well-argued and passionate posts.
“HristoStefanov” et alter argue that obsolete rule should not constrain one’s clothing choice, today. I don’t entirely disagree, but the OP was asking a different question: how to reconcile good taste in clothes with HIS requirement not to stick out like a sore thumb.
Some may say he should ignore his surroundings, but his request is not, I think, an absurd or unusual one. I may or may not agree that politeness REQUIRES one’s attire to fit in, at least partly, but it’s no use telling someone who wants to avoid excessive demarcation that he’s just wrong.
So the advice to wear tweedy, (old-style) country clothes wasn’t dictated by the desire to impose the observance of 1930s dress rules but by the hope that a man in tweed+corduroy might be well dressed but less obviously ‘overdressed’ (by today’s vomitous standards) than a man in a dark worsted suit and tie. Especially, in a non-urban setting.
“HristoStefanov” et alter argue that obsolete rule should not constrain one’s clothing choice, today. I don’t entirely disagree, but the OP was asking a different question: how to reconcile good taste in clothes with HIS requirement not to stick out like a sore thumb.
Some may say he should ignore his surroundings, but his request is not, I think, an absurd or unusual one. I may or may not agree that politeness REQUIRES one’s attire to fit in, at least partly, but it’s no use telling someone who wants to avoid excessive demarcation that he’s just wrong.
So the advice to wear tweedy, (old-style) country clothes wasn’t dictated by the desire to impose the observance of 1930s dress rules but by the hope that a man in tweed+corduroy might be well dressed but less obviously ‘overdressed’ (by today’s vomitous standards) than a man in a dark worsted suit and tie. Especially, in a non-urban setting.
I'm afraid that, if I understand correctly: you don't like to wear turtlenecks (too warm), you don't like to wear a suit tieless *and* you don’t think you can 'get away with' wearing a tie, on many occasions. So... there is no solution, from my limited intellect. I mean, I might suggest a cravat but I doubt that would meet either of the latter two requirements, in your thinking.arch wrote:A suit does not look quite right wearing an open necked shirt with a suit. The alternatives are polo neck jumpers and polo shirts, although they tend to wear warm.I have not got any further with this one. I have several very lovely checked tweed suits that do not get any much wear as they might and I often wear the jackets only. Any sensible suggestions are welcome, i.e. NOT just wear a tie anyway!!!
The best I can think of is to wear the trousers separately, with a non-matching jacket and/or jumper.
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