Softness

[J.S. Groot]

Little by little, I'm gathering myself for the big plunge: My first bespoke suit.

I have my LL RAF flannel and am considering various styles. I'm also considering letting the flannel rest for now and begin with an odd jacket + odd trouser ensemble, flannel for the trousers and tweed or cashmere for the jacket.

I'm quite a casual person. I have as of yet no times where a suit is required or even considered standard. I want to wear my suit anyway. However, I would like that it was as comfortable as possible, so that I could wear it about my daily business without being conscious about it all the time. I dread the "armour-suit". So I've been considering trying to talk to the tailor I've chosen about soft suiting. He normally employs three layers of haircloth, which seems heavy to me, and I hope I'll be able to persuade him to try something else.

Jeff D's blog has been taken up quite a lot lately, so why not use it again:
http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/201 ... tness.html

This coat looks magnificently soft and comfortable. It is, however, an odd jacket. Could something like that work for a suit, you think?

In fact, I'm slightly confused by all this soft vs hard. Is it just a matter of style or are there technical aspects all well? I mean, of course it's two different ways of constructing, but (how) does it influence how the garment wears (aside from the soft being a bit more rumpled)? Does it influence the longevity of the garment? Anything else?

[old henry]

This masterful coat by Jeffery is just what you are after. It looks like a Mitchell System pattern. You will want very little pad and no hair cloth. Substitute a layer of hymo for the hair cloth. Yes this style of soft suit will makeup beautifully. When you have no pad and a high armhole the armhole is smaller. You will need a more trim and piped sleeve. The LL Flannel will look very good with this style of suit. Notice the high gorge and button stance of Jefferys coat. This is old school. I like it. I find that when you make a suit with no pad the lapels appear to be higher. I made a single breast peak lapel for "Manton" in the style you looking for. There is a photo posted somewhere. Were I you , for the casual effect you are looking for, I would also consider patch pockets. Respect your Tailor. Frank Shattuck

[jefferyd]

Thank you.

I normally only make softer-constructed coats out of fluid cloth and my personal feeling is that English flannel may be a bit firm for that kind of style. But I could be wrong- that is an opinion on matters of style and not a technical perspective, and I make no claims to stylishness or good taste.

The structure is meant to build up shape and create a clean line- if what you are after is a more rumpled look, then by all means, soften it up. In fact, I think my coat looks a bit too clean still- it is a beautiful linen and wool blend and I think I will put it in the dryer with some tennis balls to bang it up a bit.

One word of caution- pushing your tailor to step outside of his comfort zone does not always yield happy results; if he is not used to working soft, it can be dicey. A good firm flannel is very forgiving, however, so not a bad choice for a first attempt. Linens, silks, and blends thereof, which, when done well can be stunning, can be difficult to make up when you're not used to working in that style. Bringing him a successful example of a soft coat to study is always helpful- that's why I'm always cutting apart other people's clothes.

[old henry]

Well said .

[J.S. Groot]

Thank you both for the educated comments. They are very helpful!

[Slewfoot]

Jeffery - wonderful new jacket. I love the lining details and how you incorporated some cotton. I've used a cotton shirting as a quarter lining in a linen jacket before which added a nice flair while keeping cool. Regarding the sleeves, how do you think this jacket would have turned out if you had no lining in them? I've been considering a wool/linen blend from the Harrison's Mersolair book and was thinking of no sleeve lining for more breathability.

[ay329]

I too am making up this LL RAF heavy woollen flannel (540-570grams).

If you are not ready to make a suit out of it...by all means, make up the trousers for the coming fall & winter weather.

Most tailors I've run into have been trained to make structured suits.

In time, a smaller group of tailors (A&S in England, some in Naples & Sicily...and a few in the U.S.) catered to a clientele (which originally were short, well fed men with smaller chests, who desired DB jackets), to make a less structured jacket.
Some use the term drape, while others use soft tailoring.

On teh foraz, a small minority have become vocal advocates of this style. Some of their tailors have produced some finely tailored cloths...and other stuff, which is not to my taste.

On business suit cloths...like the LL RAF flannel, I would prefer a structured suit. On odd jackets such as tweeds, cotton corduroy, linen, or fresco like cloths...below 14oz, perhaps a soft tailored/drape cut jacket might be worth experimenting...with a tailor who enjoys working on this style.

Soft tailoring traditionally refers to the structure of the jacket...specifically the chest, sleevehead & shoulders. I have never heard it referring to the style of the vest or trousers

The founder of the London Lounge, Michael Alden, is a proponent of soft tailoring. He primarily uses Sicilian based tailors to produce the type of soft tailoring which he feels best suits his build and sense of style. It almost always looks good

[alden]

The founder of the London Lounge, Michael Alden, is a proponent of soft tailoring.

I am a proponent of style. My preference is that men look great, that they reveal to the world the charisma that remains all too often dormant; how they do it is of little concern. If a man can do that wearing aluminum foil or saran wrap, then it’s perfectly fine with me.

I have worn all kinds of clothes over the years, and have found a softer make more in tune with my personality. Whatever cut or make of clothes you choose to wear, be at ease in your clothes. “The comfort concept is as follows: If you are comfortable in your clothes, you will look comfortable to others, and others will feel comfortable around you.”

Men who try to impress, dominate or intimidate others with their dress, generally create an aura that is at odds with their intent, a ridiculous and almost offensive one. A man’s dress should be humble enough to allow his generous and attractive spirit to come to the fore. Learn to accomplish this and you will have understood one of the first lessons of style.

Cheers

M Alden

[J.S. Groot]

. “The comfort concept is as follows: If you are comfortable in your clothes, you will look comfortable to others, and others will feel comfortable around you.”

This is probably the core of my relationship with dressing (I won't call it "style" just yet; it hasn't matured enough). When viewing a garment for possible acquisition, I always ask myself: "Will I wear it?". The struggle is to be honest with myself, and it's my greatest sartorial achievement so far that I've improved greatly in this aspect. With by far the most of RTW I chance upon these days of skinny glorification, I end up answering no.

Incidentally, when I realised what I would actually wear, my preferences changed. Previously, I loved the Tom Ford shape. When it dawned on me that even if I could afford a TF suit, it would most likely end up living a sad life on a hanger, I began to dislike the style. All things are connected

...below 14oz, perhaps a soft tailored/drape cut jacket might be worth experimenting...

Interestingly, I would have thought that a heavier fabric would suit soft tailoring just as well because of the draping qualities. Can someone enlighten me here?

[alden]

Interestingly, I would have thought that a heavier fabric would suit soft tailoring just as well because of the draping qualities. Can someone enlighten me here?

The Prince of Denmark called “Soft you now!” to the fair Ophelia.

Some cloth is naturally soft even in extreme weights. Flannel is a good example. Heavy worsted fabric will soften in little time. And very rigid cloth, like tweed, softens over time and with loads of wear. That is why I have always said that a great tweed coat looks (and drapes) best after many years of use. You have to be a bit patient with them. If you want instant gratification (and who doesn’t) then choose a lighter cloth that is soft from the moment it is cut.

Cheers

[J.S. Groot]

If you want instant gratification (and who doesn’t) then choose a lighter cloth that is soft from the moment it is cut.

On the other hand, if one looks at the qualities of tweed, the colours, the texture and so forth, is it not worth the extra work?

It's like... baking. Stone milled wheat it rougher and requires much more work than industrial steel milled wheat. It requires more kneading and longer sitting time. Baking a (proper) bread from stone milled wheat takes two days as opposed to maybe two hours with industrial wheat. But the result looks better, feels better, tastes better and it is nutritionally better as well.

[jefferyd]

Regarding the sleeves, how do you think this jacket would have turned out if you had no lining in them? I've been considering a wool/linen blend from the Harrison's Mersolair book and was thinking of no sleeve lining for more breathability.

Thank you. It can certainly be done without lining in the sleeve, but I would personally find it too clingy and always opt for lining in the sleeve. YMMV.

Interestingly, I would have thought that a heavier fabric would suit soft tailoring just as well because of the draping qualities. Can someone enlighten me here?

Heavy does not necessarily equate to good drape. It can be stiff or it can be fluid, as can lightweight cloth. While many heavy cloths will mask some of the things that we usually rely on inner structure to camouflage, when I think about soft clothing it is a bit more than just a lack of inner structure but also a lightness and easiness that heavier cloths do not, for me, convey. На вкус и на цвет товарищей нет

Flannel is a good example.

Flannel is a tricky one. I have a few suits in Minnis flannel which are quite rigid. After my examination of the old A&S suit, I was fascinated by the cut and some of the construction details so I tried to replicate it in my own size. I used a 13 oz English flannel, one much softer than the Minnis or Harrisons that I have previously used, assuming this would be a good choice for a drape suit. I was so wrong about the cloth choice that the thing went in the bin when it was done. The original A&S was made in a high-twist cloth which, without meaning to confuse the two different meanings of the word, drapes so much better. I consider it a learning experience. In making my own soft coats I have always stayed with the more fluid, slightly loose-weaves which hang and settle well. All this being said, while I like a soft, light approach to certain odd jackets, I don’t, personally like it for suits.

[alden]

Heavy does not necessarily equate to good drape. It can be stiff or it can be fluid, as can lightweight cloth.

Very true. It depends on the quality of the cloth. I have seen heavy cloth made to duplicate old tweeds that are like logs, no life in the cloth at all. And I have seen mid to lightweight tweeds that will bounce right out of your hand like a slippery trout.

The more men get involved in custom clothing the more they become aware of the quality of the cloth they use. It is good advice to work with tailors who have experimented with a variety of fabrics, structures etc. and can quickly determine the best one for your desired application.

Flannel is a tricky one.

Yes, especially heavyweight worsted flannel which can be quite stiff.

A few years ago I found a bolt of woolen flannel in a shop in Paris lost under a pile of fabrics for years. I had the cloth carbon dated by the guys at L Mill who indicated it was made probably made early 70s in Yorkshire. It was originally purchased to make woman’s overcoats (high twist, 20 ozs) but it was very fluid. It must have been a lot like the flannel you saw in the AS coat. The suits that have been made of the cloth turned out beautifully without exception. But, I do not have access to anything like it. It simply isn’t made anymore. (I’ll send you a clipping of it.)

Yes, a loose weave soft fabric, made soft is a wonder to wear as a sports coat (like a cardigan but with big pockets.) But this is not city suit material. I saw a light, loose weave Breanish tweed 3 pc suit made by AS on a noted UK fashion writer (who is supposed to be a dandy and know better) and it looked like a chocolate sundae melting on him, or cobwebs blowing in the wind amidst the spars of some lost, battered and grounded ship. In other words, it looked ghastly.

[old henry]

Good sturdy cloth will break itself in and soften itself from practical wear. Good sturdy cloth will break in. Others will pill and fade away. A sturdy tweed coat or an English flannel suit is not truly finished until it has been worn for a few years and been caught in a few thunder storms. Make sure your tailor shrinks it well. Frank S

[jefferyd]

Actually the A&S wasn't in a flannel at all but a high-twist clear-finish worsted of some sort with a nice hand to it. It was my silly idea to make a drape suit in a flannel and the results were dreadful.