The London Lounge

As per my recently research, some interesting informations from a website, which i would like to share it with other bespoke fans.
The begining started from the website http://www.adslands.com, and it has another name is http://www.henrybailey.co.uk. It is a company provides bespoke service on savile row, their bespoke service is not just for normal customers also provides trimming service for some UK bespoke houses, as website mentioned they did training courses for Chinese young tailors at Ningbo China. And I also noticed they did mention
quote
The garments are cut by Savile Row tailors in Savile Row before being sent for sewing to the Chinese workshop.
unquote
Assuming the reason is "This is exacerbated by the lack of young people entering the tailoring industry. It was felt that bespoke tailoring was a diminishing industry facing an uncertain future." (quoted from http://www.henrybailey.co.uk/faq.htm).
There are some photos shown some savile row cutters ( i recognized one of cutter from a famous house on the row) and tailors did training courses for them and some Chinese tailors do trimming works for some suits.
Everybody knows Savile row has big reputation of HAND MADE in UK, and this is the reason why we pay at least Three thousand pound (start price) for the suit! but rarely know where the suit is Made? Assuming it's made in UK? or just CUT in UK?
FYI Chinese tailor's salary is approx. 100 pound per month, why bespoke suit start from this price?
I think It's no disagreement if just focus on craft, every hand-made suit is contributed by craftsman, no matter, Chinese tailors made it or British tailors made it. but better we know the truth before we pay.
hopefully all Savile Row companies can keep their reputation well, and wish them all the best.

Some of pictures on said web-site are blatantly "lifted" from other web-sites. Draw your own conclusions.

Andrey

An interesting post.

Bear in mind that there are few "tailors" in China, as we would know them in the West. That is, a skilled tradesman who serves a lengthy and formal apprenticeship. Most artisanal trades were abolished in the 1960's as Marxist collectivisation of industry forced small workshop trades to shut, and huge state-owned garment factories clad everybody in baggy blue Mao suits. A few small tailors survived in very small towns where centralised logistics did not extend its tentacles.

Many good Chinese tailors survived the dangerous journey to Hong Kong and Taiwan in 1949 and their sons still run these businesses to a good standard.

Most "bespoke tailors" in Mainland China are run by entrepreneurs and have been in business for less than five years. They have "cutters" who have learned to adjust basic stock patterns, and "tailors" who are mostly young girls from the village with 3-4 months of sewing machine experience.

There is nothing inherently evil with such an approach, it fills a market need, even if we might not like it, and these people work very hard on modest margins. However, it is drawing quite a long bow to call a 19 year old machinist a "Savile-Row trained tailor".

"it does not matter what color a cat is as long as it hunts mice"
Mao Ze dong.

In my opinion these are pretty cats.



The problem is how much cost. If we can have a good chinese bespoke for a fraction of English (or Italian) bespoke..well,is great!
But if the Row tailors buy bespoke clothes from China and sell at London price level...
This is not nice.

Assuming you live in a major metropolitan area or have access to the heart of a great city via foot, bicycle, car or public transit, chances are you will find a talented tailor. Although there are wonderful tailors to be found on and off Savile Row, Milano, Firenze, Naples, New York and Chicago, it's inconvenient to get to them for a fitting if you live far away from their shops. Worse is waiting for those semi-annual visits to commission a new suit or coat. Getting the completed item takes forever and is no guarantee of a perfect fit. Too much to and froing to fix this or that detail that was somehow overlooked. Patronize the local talent and make sure the work is primarily done on site. Although finding a topnotch tailor can be a daunting task (hint: they're seldom located at street level these days and apt to be found in old office buildings with slow elevators), it's worth the effort. Well-suited is well-dressed!

JMB

As a somewhat related point to OP, there are a few shops that explicitly link their MTM operations with a Chinese factory.

Kilgour's was a fantastic deal while it lasted-- all cutting done in London, with the bits flown to Shanghai to be assembled. An excellently-fitting, basically well-made suit for maybe $1,300. Then the pound went up. On top of that, they raised prices, and in the last year eliminated the program completely.

I think this factory now makes for a small made to measure e-tailor based near the Bank of England. The top of the range suits are cut on the row and then fitted, you then receive the finished suit six weeks later when alterations can be made...I believe the cutter is called John and may or may not be Edwin DeBoise's (of Steed) brother! I had a suit made and am not entirely pleased with it yet, but the construction seems top notch!

Concordia wrote:As a somewhat related point to OP, there are a few shops that explicitly link their MTM operations with a Chinese factory.

Kilgour's was a fantastic deal while it lasted-- all cutting done in London, with the bits flown to Shanghai to be assembled. An excellently-fitting, basically well-made suit for maybe $1,300. Then the pound went up. On top of that, they raised prices, and in the last year eliminated the program completely.

I agree, that the Kilgour Shanghai made suit was a great deal. The program allowed me to buy my first bespoke suit. I had a couple made and I thought they were pretty good. Too bad they eliminated the product because it was a compelling offer that allowed them to appeal to younger gentlemen. I also appreciated that they were honest and open regarding their connection with a Shanghai factory. In general the product was well made and very well cut. It would be interesting if other Savile Row firms did something similar so that younger gentlemen could afford and be properly introduced to bespoke clothing.

I am the Tailoring Director of Henry Bailey Limited. I write to dispel some inaccuracies mentioned in this discussion.

There is indeed a shortage of skilled coat makers and trouser makers in the West End. Many are near the age of retirement. It takes 5 years of sweat, blood and tears to be trained as a coat maker. Many young apprentices are not prepared to make such a sacrifice.

Our workshop is an "ethical" Anglo/ Chinese project to transfer Savile Row quality cutting and garment making skills to China. We do not take in any young apprentices and only train qualified tailors who have at least 10 years experience in the trade. It is important that we look after our team of tailors and respect them as artisans. In making a handcrafted bespoke garment, one has to put passion and effort into each garment. This cannot be achieved if our team is not happy and contented working for us. We make sure the working conditions are good and we employ local tailors in Ningbo, so they can be with their families after work. To suggest that we pay our tailors £100.00 a month is utterly ludicrous.

I am not disputing the fact that there are factories in China that make a living from human suffering, but please do not put us in the same category. We are members of the Clean Clothes Campaign and we stand and abide by their rules and regulations.

If you delve deeper into the tailoring trade in Savile Row, you will find many illegal immigrants from China and Malaysia doing the “finishing” and making hand buttonholes etc. How much are they paid?

The Chinese Government officials fully support and endorse our workshop as it has fine tuned and revived the tailoring skills in China, that were introduced by the British in the 19th century. This project goes a long way to banishing the stigma that all things manufactured in China are cheap and produced under unethical conditions.

To answer Audrey’s comment, the photos used on our website are of garments made by our workshop for various tailoring companies. All have been published with their full consent and blessing.

We will welcome the day when the Savile Row Association issues a kite mark for all garments made within one hundred yard radius of Savile Row. Most tailoring companies we work for are happy to let their customers know where their garments are made. Most of their customers do not see it as a problem, as they notice an improvement in the make and are happy to pay the same price. We should not forget the rising rents and rates for shops in Mayfair. Most importantly, we should not dismiss the skills of a Savile Row tailor in cutting and fitting a suit. It is humbling to know that we have passed the “litmus” test and are producing “pretty cats” for our individual customers as well as tailoring companies working with us.

It is nice to read something grounded in reality once in a while, as opposed to long-winded rambling justifications on why one must be happy to pay additional for 'tradition', inflated store rentals, and to maintain the lifestyles of men who 'traditionally' did not lead said lifestyles.

A suit assembled in China might be as good as a Savile Row suit or even better but it is not a Savile Row suit, IMO. What's next? Champagne produced in California?

you will find many illegal immigrants from China and Malaysia doing the “finishing” and making hand buttonholes etc.

Mr.Achan,
Surprising that there are Malaysian illegal immigrants working in Uk.

Do H.Bailey ever work with a Malaysian tailoring workshop in Malaysia?.I remember seeing a Henry Bailey brand at that workshop,where used them to do my trousers. They do a good job,as far as I am concerned.
Forgive me,I dont mean to inquisitive.

murtadza

Apa khabar Encik Al Murtadza,

Many coat makers and trouser makers pass on their work to a finisher, who hand sews the buttonholes and lining. Finishers are in great demand as their work is very laborious, and not many in the UK are keen to take up the job. Women from the far East are best suited for this kind of work as their hands are small. Hence, stitches are smaller and buttonholes finer.

We do make visits to Malaysia to take orders and fit our private individual customers. All our garments are handcrafted by our team of tailors we train in Ningbo. Each garment goes through vigorous quality checks throughout the whole making process. Unfortunately, we do not outsource our make to any other workshops.

Mr.Achan,
Khabar baik,saudara disana bagaimana,perniagaan semakin baik agaknya.Do keep me inform of your trip to Kl,I want you to me a nice trousers and bring alogn some swatches of Irish linen(14oz) and Sports jacket material( light weight Shetland tweed ,wearable in an aircon off. with you.
Contact me here: almurtadza9@yahoo.com

murtadza

Sorry to revive an old thread, but has anyone used Henry Bailey? I ask as I have noticed their entry into the US market this year, and I'm interested in giving them a go.

The business model certainly reminds one of Kilgour's Shanghai offering, which was quite appealing.