Bespoke shirt (Massatelier Fasan, Berlin) - please comment!

[Maxomoto]

Dear fellow boardmembers,

I received my first bespoke shirt from a small tailor here in Berlin (Atelier Fasan, Bleibtreustr.). I would really like to get your comments on it. There are several "issues" I have with the shirt (see below) - but I would also be very interested what other LL'ers think about the fit of it. (Please excuse my photo skills).

Front:


Back:


Here are my concerns:

1. The collar.
a) The collar points "bend" inwards - see here



b) On the back, the collar sticks out or up - see here


c) Below the top button is a strange "crease" (not caused by ironing)


2. The cloth. I have chosen a cloth by Alumo; egyptian cotton, 120, aprox. 125 grams p. sqm. I really hate it. It wrinkles very very much. I shot those photos 3 min. after putting the shirt on (in the morning). It looks like I have slept in it...is this normal?


Detailed shot of cloth and buttons


Besides that, I really enjoyed the experience and will try to improve my shirts with the tailor in Berlin. (Hopefully based on your input).

Best regards from Berlin,

Max

[Costi]

Dear Max,

I think you've got a good start with your shirtmaker. I also think that, once he sees you wearing the shirt, he should know what points need his attention. Personally I would like to see a little bit more ease in the chest, and the shoulder seam could be about a centimeter lower. The sleeve needn't ride up your shoulder.
Yes, these fine shirtings wrinkle in a second. The important thing is that it feels luxurious on your skin (does it?) and you should be wearing your coat anyway
Are you wearing collar stays? This should be enough to sort out the inward bending corners. But since the collar is non-fused (at least judging by the small wrinkles along the seams), it shouldn't have this tendency. Perhaps it is something to do with the quality of the interlining or the way it is cut. Ask the shirtmaker.
The collar has a slight outward curve at the middle of the back, precisely meant to cover the collar seam. Yours is either cut straight, or too shallow. It can be corrected on future orders. The front also needs adjustment where it meets the collarband, to take out that pleat. A little (more) tie space would not hurt, either.
Mens' shirt buttons usually have four holes and should be cross-stitched. Ask if they can use such buttons on future orders. And since they are handsewn, make sure they are shanked, too - your collarband button seems to lie very flat against the cloth.
One last thing: your shirt would look much better if your trousers reached your waist, where the shirt is darted, too. You have a long torso and the low rise trousers are not much help.
Above all, be patient and work with your shirtmaker to improve the design and details. Just wear the shirt next time you call on and ask the shirtmaker what he/she thinks needs improvement.

[edhayes]

wonderful buttons-seems to need a good pressing. i agree completely about the trousers being cut higher.

[Maxomoto]

Thank you very much for your answers. I will ask my tailor for higher pants with the next suit. I will keep you posted on the improvements with my shirtmaker.

Regards from Berlin,

Max

[Gruto]

The shirt pulls a little just below of the knot (or there's too much cloth up to the collar, the shirtmaker will know). Maybe the armholes are a little tight? I agree with Costi that the shoulderseam can me moved 1/2 or one cm, but this is more to do with style than fit.

[Maxomoto]

Just to clarify: What is the shoulder seam? The seam running from my neck to the arm on top of my shoulder? And where should it sit?

Thanks, Max

[Gruto]

Just to clarify: What is the shoulder seam? The seam running from my neck to the arm on top of my shoulder? And where should it sit?

Thanks, Max

The shoulder point, where yoke and sleeve meet. That point could be lowered 1/2 or 1 cm.

[cdo]

Hi Max
I agree with Costi's comment about the fine shirting creasing. All of my alumo and T&A's bespoke shirts crease like yours especially after tieing the tie. Also, plains highlight the issue the most - with stripes and patterns, it tends to be much less obvious. I generally find that after a couple of hour's wear that the creases soften out, although not completely.
One question - are you wearing a t-shirt under your shirt?

C

[oldog/oldtrix]

Here are some shirt “rules” by which I abide. To the extent they answer the original poster’s questions, he is welcome to follow them, as is any other reader. To the extent they make me a putz, so be it.

1. “Fine” cottons (most 120s and up, even some 100s) do not make fine shirts. There is no reason why a dress shirt should become wrinkled/creased from the simple act of tying one’s tie. Cottons in the 80s-100s range press well, hold their press, are comfortable, and become more comfortable with washing and wearing. For the ultra delicate of skin, wear silk.

2. Shirts fitted closely to the wearer’s body are for women. A man’s shirt should have an easy fit. Body, sleeves, and armholes need be no more closely fitted than is necessary to avoid bunching under one’s coat.

3. Fused interlining so much more often serves the purpose better than non-fused in lined collars and cuffs that it is not worth the extra effort, both in making and ironing, to use non-fused.

4. If a shirt’s collar does not sit well all around and with or without a tie, the shirt is useless.

Here are some good examples:

ocbd_1.jpg

bigshirt.jpg

contipicco.jpg

[gmludlow]

Here are some shirt “rules” by which I abide. To the extent they answer the original poster’s questions, he is welcome to follow them, as is any other reader. To the extent they make me a putz, so be it.

1. “Fine” cottons (most 120s and up, even some 100s) do not make fine shirts. There is no reason why a dress shirt should become wrinkled/creased from the simple act of tying one’s tie. Cottons in the 80s-100s range press well, hold their press, are comfortable, and become more comfortable with washing and wearing. For the ultra delicate of skin, wear silk.

2. Shirts fitted closely to the wearer’s body are for women. A man’s shirt should have an easy fit. Body, sleeves, and armholes need be no more closely fitted than is necessary to avoid bunching under one’s coat.

3. Fused interlining so much more often serves the purpose better than non-fused in lined collars and cuffs that it is not worth the extra effort, both in making and ironing, to use non-fused.

4. If a shirt’s collar does not sit well all around and with or without a tie, the shirt is useless.

Here are some good examples:

ocbd_1.jpg

bigshirt.jpg

contipicco.jpg

[Costi]

I agree with no. 1. Not only do superfine cottons wrinkle badly, but they last significantly less, too. A superfine cotton shirt will feel soft and luxurious on the skin from the outset, that's true. But a "normal" cotton shirt will develop the same softness after a number of washes, when the superfine will most probably have developed holes in the collar points already.

I also agree with no. 2. Fit is often mistaken for tightness - not only with shirts.

As far as non-fuses interlining (no. 3), if it is of good quality and if the job is done by expert hands I think the results are not comparable. A good non-fused interlining collar will feel substantial, but soft and flexible. A fused collar will be stiff by comparison, or flimsy if lightweight fusable interlining is used. Assuming good quality fused interlining is used, it should not develop unsightly bubbles - but the ideal gluing conditions (temperature, pression, the length of time they are applied) are difficult to control in a craftsman's workshop, as opposed to an industrial facility. In my view non-fused interlining is best used for bespoke shirtmaking, while fused interlining is best used for industrial shirtmaking. Try to switch them and you're inviting trouble...

No. 4 needs no comment...

[oldog/oldtrix]

As far as non-fuses interlining (no. 3), if it is of good quality and if the job is done by expert hands I think the results are not comparable. A good non-fused interlining collar will feel substantial, but soft and flexible. A fused collar will be stiff by comparison, or flimsy if lightweight fusable interlining is used.

I agree with your disagreement with my point 3; but your proviso "if the job is done by expert hands" is key. Of course, as I have confessed before, I am a RTW plebian. Even so, I have over the years purchased the finest RTW shirts available, some of which have been made with the same expertise and technique as is applied to bespoke, and for a consistently good appearance I still favor fused collars. I wear primarily wide spread and/or cutaway collars for which stiffness is desirable, at least to me. Fusing achieves that and, from the makers I favor, with no loss of comfort. The fusing is bonded only to the outer collar, so the under collar and, most importantly, the collar stand remain soft. With non-fused, if the interlining is cut to perfect size and the collar is stitched perfectly around it, the same appearance may be achieved without starch and or difficult pressing. Otherwise, starch is necessary, defeating the soft yet flexible quality you mention. Finally, you are probably correct that the technical requirements of fusing can be more consistently met in an industrial setting, yet I am aware, albeit second hand, of well respected bespoke shirt makers who happily use, if not favor, fusing.

All this may just be rationalizing on my part. Nonetheless, the fused collars on the shirts from the makers I patronize, and these are industrial makers for sure, look just as I like them and the fusing outlasts the useful life of the shirts.

[Costi]

I agree, a "clean" appearence is desirable in a collar, but I think you reversed the natural order: the FUSED collar imitates a well-done non-fused collar, not the other way round Fusing is essentially a technical shortcut from my point of view: it is much easier to cut and sew a pre-fabricated stiffened cloth than go through all the trouble of boiling, ironing, measuring, cutting and carefully sewing together the parts of a non-fused collar. Beyond this productivity justification (and a better chance for inexperienced shirtmakers to make decent collars, the most difficult part of a shirt) I see no other advantage to fusing.
I have nothing against efficiency in tailoring, but most often shortcuts have drawbacks. It is arguable how noticeable these disadvantages are (and that may well be a subjective matter).
The well executed non-fused collar, using good quality interlining that has been properly pre-treated, has a luxurious quality about it that the fused collar simply cannot impart. It is firm, but not stiff. Soft, but not flimsy. And the collar stays do a wonderful job of keeping the collar leaves taught for a neat appearence.

[oldog/oldtrix]

You win. I'm so depressed at the thought of all those fused collars in my closet. I'm just going to give them all to the men's shelter near my home and retain only my button down collar shirts which have no interlining.

fredbald.jpg

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[BirdsOneView]

I am (slowly) replacing my fused-collar shirts with traditionally lined ones. In the interim I am also relying heavily on button-down collars.