The London Lounge

Dear loungers,

This is really a minor issue, but I have seen pictures of a double-breasted overcoat described as a 'polo' coat and as a Chesterfield, but cannot work out the difference in the coat or the situations where it seems to be worn. Polo would imply a more sporty coat, but that seems to little effect stopping people wearing all sorts of things in towns now.

A polo coat is a loose-fitting coat which was formerly made of camel’s hair. It used to be worn by polo players. Hence its name. According to the Encyclopedia of Men’s Wear,

“Early polo coats were often belted wrap styles, but the cut that became most identified with the term was the style loosely fitted, double-breasted coat with patch pockets that Brook Brothers and other retailers began to offer in the US before the World War I. During the late 1920s, it became identified with prep schools and collegiate style, and later passed into the preppy canon. Synonyms: camel’s hair coat; wait coat.”

Could you possibly post some of the pictures you have reffered to? Thanks in advance!

Two of the most remarkable polo coats can be seen on the following DVDs: A POCKETFUL OF MIRACLES and MAME. Both examples are belted wrap coats. The coat worn by Glenn Ford in A POCKETFUL OF MIRACLES is made of near-white cashmere with a bright-crimson lining. The coat worn by Forest Tucker in MAME is a rich tan cashmere that is the epitome of the classic polo wrap style. Neither coat should be confused with the droopy thing that Brooiks Brothers tries to fob off as a polo. So for a good look at superb examples of the style, trot down to your local disc rental store and watch the films, both of which are rather entertaining.

JMB

A polo coat is a type of Ulster. It has lapels like an Ulster and may take patch pockets. The main distinguishing feature between it and other Ulsters is that it has a full belt that can be tied up at the front. It is a casual type of sports overcoat

A Chesterfield is a totally different beast. It is typically SB with fly-front but DB cuts are also considered correct. SB Chesterfields may take pointed or step lapels. It is the most formal of all standard modern overcoats in common usage.



http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

Well, there is considerable variation in what seems to come under the term 'polo', and there are plenty of pictures around, such as this one (left), confirmed by Costi as a polo coat:

(No belt in sight.)

I had spotted the similarity between it and Ulsters:


but on the other hand, all these coats were described as Chesterfields:

In particular, second from right, we see a heavy herringbone, with a similar very low button stance to the Prince's above, and not noticeably any more fitted (it is, after all, an oversack).

Can the difference really be as small as just the patch pockets, and choice of fabric, though even there am a little confused if the original polo coat is double-breasted camelhair, as we have this Chesterfield from AA:


I am sure our resident taxonomist can clarify these pictures. Thanks for the input already.

Bernhard Roetzel provides the most thorough discussion in that he specifically shows an overcoat with the full belt that can be tied up at the front. He calls it an American derivative of the Ulster. So we may be running into British vs American English problems again (like frock overcoat and surtout).

Other texts (Dictionary of Costume and Fashion, Picken) say it is made "with or without a belt and made of camel hair or imitation". It seems that it overlaps so much with the Ulster that it can no longer be distinguished from it. If it lacks a belted back then it makes it a beltless Ulster. The Chesterfield does not take patch pockets, so remains distinct.

The term polo coat is beginning to look like a largely redundant American English term with no clear definition. That is why I prefer Roetzel's definition of it as being a fully belted American derivative of the Ulster that ties up at the front.

The history of garment is always like this.

NCW wrote:Well, there is considerable variation in what seems to come under the term 'polo', and there are plenty of pictures around, such as this one (left), confirmed by Costi as a polo coat:

(No belt in sight.)

It probably has a half belted back making it an Ulster overcoat. You cannot see the belted back from the front. Also Charles is English. Polo coats, according to Roetzel, are American.

NCW wrote:I had spotted the similarity between it and Ulsters:

The back is not shown but is likely to have a half belted construction. The lapels in this instance are also typical Ulster styled lapels with the downward facing angle.

Also AA/Esquire are American publications, and caution should be exercised when reading their texts. The term oversack is purely an American term just as the term sack coat is American English for a lounge coat (or reefer jacket).

NCW, usage among knowledgeable American men seems to define "polo coat" as a double-breasted, peaked-lapel, camel's hair overcoat, with patch pockets and either a full or a half belt. Here, today, a Chesterfield is single-breasted, generally with a velvet collar.

Is usage different in other places, times, or sections of society? Of course. That's what keeps lexicographers employed.

RWS wrote: That's what keeps lexicographers employed.

Harmless drudges
NJS

RWS's definition of a Polo ovecoat (as well as of a Chersterfield, for that matter) is closest to the picture I have in my mind of what a Polo overcoat has been for the past 80 years or so. I would only add a nuance and say that the Polo does not always have a classic peak lapel (like a DB Chesterfield), but a large collar that is almost as wide as the lapel and both have rounded corners.
Historically, the Polo overcoat is of English origin, being first worn by English Polo players in colonial India while they waited during the game, dismounted from their horses. They brought it to England and from there it made fashion in the US. That's the way I know it, at any rate.
The loosely cut, full belted version, resembling more a robe than an overcoat, took shape and became a more "tailored' garment, most examples displaying the features described by RWS. Given its origin, the Polo is an informal overcoat, but one that is very versatile and is acceptably (I won't use the word "correctly" to avoid a debate over its meaning) worn with any kind of town non-business day dress. Some even wear it over a dinner suit (debatable in terms of historical correctness, but not necessarily tasteless - especially when travelling). Of course it can very well be worn in the country, too, with tweeds or even cords and a turtleneck pullover. It is one of the very few coats that can easily go both to town and country, making it a very useful travel overcoat in my view.
NCW, in the large picture with 5 overcoats the first one from the left could be defined as a Chesterfield if it didn't have cuffs. The second one is most probably a Guard's Coat (we can't see the back, but the colour, the cuffs and slanted pockets are consistent with this design and it probably also has a half belt). The third one is a Chesterfield. The fourth is a DB Chesterfield cut in a heavier cloth, but it's townwear. The fifth is a Raglan.
What I find more difficult is to distinguish an Ulster from a Polo overcoat, if that is at all possible .

storeynicholas wrote:

RWS wrote: That's what keeps lexicographers employed.

Harmless drudges
NJS

Ah! You, too, appreciate the good doctor! (I should have been surprised, did you not, NJS!)

RWS wrote:

storeynicholas wrote:

RWS wrote: That's what keeps lexicographers employed.

Harmless drudges
NJS

Ah! You, too, appreciate the good doctor! (I should have been surprised, did you not, NJS!)

Indeed! and, as I mentioned elsewhere, one of our cats is called Hodge and, indeed, as you may well know, the original Hodge has his own memorial statue in Gough Square - with it inscription Not, perhaps, my favourite cat - but a fine cat... a very fine cat indeed - rather as his master does - outside the church of St Clement Danes in Strand (with its clock chimes of 'Oranges and Lemons'). Apart from the Dictionary and the novel Raselas, Dr Johnson is remembered largely by virtue of his conversation and character recorded for us by Boswell. It strikes me as quite a tribute to Brummell that, even without a contemporaneous record of a great deal of his conversation and even with a pretty rotten, exiled and disease-ridden end, he manages to stay, not just in the nation's consciousness, but in the eye of the whole world and is equally commemorated by a statue and a plaque in the great city which hosted the ascendancy of each of these splendid individuals.
NJS[/i]

storeynicholas wrote:

RWS wrote:

storeynicholas wrote: Harmless drudges
NJS

Ah! You, too, appreciate the good doctor! (I should have been surprised, did you not, NJS!)

Indeed! and, as I mentioned elsewhere, one of our cats is called Hodge and, indeed, as you may well know, the original Hodge has his own memorial statue in Gough Square - with it inscription Not, perhaps, my favourite cat - but a fine cat... a very fine cat indeed - rather as his master does - outside the church of St Clement Danes in Strand (with its clock chimes of 'Oranges and Lemons'). Apart from the Dictionary and the novel Raselas, Dr Johnson is remembered largely by virtue of his conversation and character recorded for us by Boswell. It strikes me as quite a tribute to Brummell that, even without a contemporaneous record of a great deal of his conversation and even with a pretty rotten, exiled and disease-ridden end, he manages to stay, not just in the nation's consciousness, but in the eye of the whole world and is equally commemorated by a statue and a plaque in the great city which hosted the ascendancy of each of these splendid individuals.
NJS[/i]

I seem to remember Boswell quoting Johnson as saying to Hodge "Hodge,you are a most excellent cat!" There is a semi-Johnson character (a Reverend something or other) in Michael Innes's Appleby's End with a cat named Hodge. I sometimes tell our own family cat "Archie, you are a most excellent cat" (which he is).
I have missed both Hodge's (I assume it must be inside Johnson's house) and his master's (but can a cat ever be said to have a master?) statues. I shall have to find them. How long have they (I allude to the statues) been there?
Some years ago, the Good Book Guide was offering a facsimile of Johnson's Dictionary and I elected not to buy it. I have been kicking myself ever since.

Frog in Suit

Doesn't a Chesterfield take a velvet collar on top as well?

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

Frog in Suit wrote:

storeynicholas wrote:

RWS wrote: Ah! You, too, appreciate the good doctor! (I should have been surprised, did you not, NJS!)

Indeed! and, as I mentioned elsewhere, one of our cats is called Hodge and, indeed, as you may well know, the original Hodge has his own memorial statue in Gough Square - with it inscription Not, perhaps, my favourite cat - but a fine cat... a very fine cat indeed - rather as his master does - outside the church of St Clement Danes in Strand (with its clock chimes of 'Oranges and Lemons'). Apart from the Dictionary and the novel Raselas, Dr Johnson is remembered largely by virtue of his conversation and character recorded for us by Boswell. It strikes me as quite a tribute to Brummell that, even without a contemporaneous record of a great deal of his conversation and even with a pretty rotten, exiled and disease-ridden end, he manages to stay, not just in the nation's consciousness, but in the eye of the whole world and is equally commemorated by a statue and a plaque in the great city which hosted the ascendancy of each of these splendid individuals.
NJS[/i]

I seem to remember Boswell quoting Johnson as saying to Hodge "Hodge,you are a most excellent cat!" There is a semi-Johnson character (a Reverend something or other) in Michael Innes's Appleby's End with a cat named Hodge. I sometimes tell our own family cat "Archie, you are a most excellent cat" (which he is).
I have missed both Hodge's (I assume it must be inside Johnson's house) and his master's (but can a cat ever be said to have a master?) statues. I shall have to find them. How long have they (I allude to the statues) been there?
Some years ago, the Good Book Guide was offering a facsimile of Johnson's Dictionary and I elected not to buy it. I have been kicking myself ever since.

Frog in Suit

The research bug has caught our dear FiS! The statue to Hodge is not inside the house - it is outside, in Gough Square, off Fleet Street. Johnson's own statue is not easily missed - once you see it (although it is somewhat in the shade of the eastern-end of the church). Once seen, never forgotten. The statue of Johnson has been there as long as I have known the area well (1978) - and, almost certainly, much longer. The statue of Hodge dates from its unveiling by the Lord Mayor of London, in September 1997, and bears the inscription 'A very fine cat indeed'.
http://www.purr-n-fur.org.uk/famous/hodge.html
I quite agree that cats don't have masters - as Churchill rightly said: A dog looks up to you: a cat looks down upon you - but a pig regards you as an equal!. and our own little (bolting) Sparky has 2 surviving kittens from her delivery on Saturday - all in residence in my Good Lady's wardrobe - Sparky didn't run off, at the last, but went to my wife for help, in her plight - and delivered on one of our best towels on a cane verandah chair. Apart from ' a harmless drudge' as his definition of a lexicographer, I always like Johnson's definition of a horse as a 'neighing quadruped'.One thing about Johnson that strikes me most of all is that, even when he was impoverished (and he was for most of his life), the beggars of Fleet Street could always count upon something from him. Here is a link to details of the statue of Johnson: http://www.samueljohnson.com/picture.html
I believe that the famous quote about Hodge (as memorialized), derives from the occasion when Boswell observed Johnson playing with Hodge and Boswell (who generally disliked cats), said: 'he is a fine cat' and Johnson replied: '
Why, yes, sir, I have had cats whom I liked better than this - and then, as if perceiving Hodge to be out of countenance, adding: ' but he is a very fine cat, a very fine cat indeed!'
NJS