The London Lounge

Hello Gentlemen, My first posting on the site - hope I've not waffled!
I have only this year decided to bespeak a suit for myself, so set about researching local tailors (it seemed appropriate to obtain a suit made in Yorkshire of Yorkshire cloth). I chose my tailor on the basis of their apparent expertise and fully armed with a list of requirements and sure that I did not know everything I have now got my suit.

Too late perhaps - but now I have chanced across this site and read much on the subject of "bespoke suits" that are really MTM, rude Savile Row tailors (outside my price range!), different house styles that may or may not be elegant (drapes etc), mistakes with suit specifications, various appraisals of clothing and such like.

My questions are -
The tailor strongly advised against working buttons as I may get wrong sleeve length, they seemed pointless so I conceded to his experience. He also stated that a fly button was untidy compared to a zip fly. Was he avoiding extra work?
Are forward pleats unattractive as they throw the material of the trouser forward rather than to the side like reverse pleats? I asked for forward pleats as they are traditional English method of pleating trousers
Should the crease in the trouser legs stay over the knee when I sit down? Would this be rectified by pressing them differently?
Suit was stitched in other premises but cloth cut by tailor. He stated that people would know it was bespoke, he did adjust it around the shoulders on the second time I saw him, one arm was on the suit not both. Are there elements of bespoke on a MTM suit here?

I actually think the suit looks quite good although ignorance may be bliss! I am not sure whether I trust the tailor though and do not want to give him an unfair press if there is any truth in what he has told me.

Any thoughts would be most welcome, my wife lost interest in my conversation about this suit some time ago.

Working sleeve buttons can be a problem if you don't get the garment properly fitted before finishing. If your guy is worried about that, this is probably MTM. Your other comments later tend to confirm this.

In fairness, some of the Savile Row shops do 2 real + 2 sham, with varying degrees of success in disguising the mismatch. This can be helpful if you let your son have the suit later on or, as once happened to me, a sleeve length for an overcoat that seemed just right in a hotel room in April wound up feeling somewhat undernourished in combat. Now that coat has 3 real + 1 sham.

Button fly is your option. This detail seems to be most suited to a very leisurely life, or one where one's neighbors in public lavatories don't mind a lot of surreptitious manual activity prior to releasing the Kraken.

I prefer forward pleats-- many Italians and Americans disagree. You should feel free to develop your own opinion after you've worn good examples of both.

First, wives seldom pay more than lip-service to our conversations on these subjects that it why men have clubs and fora such as this. Mind you, next time that she does a twirl, with a smile and asks "How do I look, then" just remember never to seek revenge by answering: "Very pleased" I confess that this joke is not original but it does seem so apposite! Secondly, I read your post expecting, every downward scroll, to bring the top of a photograph!! You can't expect criticism on the basis of your simple description. Some people cut their heads out and some people wear masks for these shots - I am nver entirely sure why as to see a full length shot shows how that suit suits you as a complete figure. Anyway, I am not the one to lecture you on arm holes and drape but a picture is, I should suggest, essential. and according to a recent excellent example from Michael Alden - don't forget the back of the coat too - and in daylight!!
NJS[/i]

Dear Sta,
Welcome in the LL!

Dear Sta,
What is bespoke can be debated ad nauseam! In my comprehension MTM is a industrial made garment fitted to the measurements of a certain client (different drops in pants and coat) with the advantage of choosing a specific fabric and some external aspects - pockets, cuffs (yes you can have working cuffs on a MTM coat, even on a OTR one), etc. It is a personalized model of an industrial product.
On the other hand a bespoke product will be an unique product, made for (or on you) by and artisan, with artisans methods! Now we can debate how much machine and how much hand is going into that, does he or she have a "house cut" or a "house style", etc, but it remains an artisan's product. Yes, several people will be working on that, or not - normally you have a master-cutter, a coat maker and a pants maker, or you can have a master-tailor that will do all, it all depends on the size of the operation - I remember an old tailor, in fact my first tailor, but who was my grand-grand father's and my grand-father's tailor, who had his workshop across the street from my house (my father patronized another tailor) and he made every piece of garment for a suit, others will have different modes of operation. When you have two basted fittings, that is a bespoke product - you see the internals of a coat, canvass, et alii, you discuss pocket, button placement, lapels width, coat length. A MTM will have one fitting (final for tweaking), with everything on place - and some minor things will be altered. What you get is a stock suit made on your (general) measurements. Normally it will fit you, it will look good, but it won't be a unique artisan's product. If you can live with that, it is ok!
Good luck,
Dan

Welcome to the Lounge, Sta!

sta wrote:The tailor strongly advised against working buttons as I may get wrong sleeve length, they seemed pointless so I conceded to his experience.

With bespoke getting the sleeve length wrong with working buttonholes already in place is out of question, because you will be measured and fitted before they are cut. Working buttonholes are nice to have, but I must admit they are not essential.

sta wrote:He also stated that a fly button was untidy compared to a zip fly. Was he avoiding extra work?

I think he was. A button fly is in no way untidy. I find it less stiff than the zip version.

sta wrote:Are forward pleats unattractive as they throw the material of the trouser forward rather than to the side like reverse pleats? I asked for forward pleats as they are traditional English method of pleating trousers

I like forward pleats BECAUSE they throw the material forward. That's where it is needed when you take a step. This works particularly well with full trousers. I also prefer the way the creases look with forward pleats.

sta wrote:Should the crease in the trouser legs stay over the knee when I sit down? Would this be rectified by pressing them differently?

Not directly over your knee, a little inward. There is only one correct way to press the trousers, right through the middle of the trouser legs.

sta wrote:Suit was stitched in other premises but cloth cut by tailor. He stated that people would know it was bespoke, he did adjust it around the shoulders on the second time I saw him, one arm was on the suit not both. Are there elements of bespoke on a MTM suit here?

If this is your first commission from this tailor, it sounds like an MTM. My tailor could probably make me a finished suit, presumably with a couple of minor adjustments afterwards, but he couldn't have done it on my first suit.

The fact that you are so preoccupied with the suit that your wife won't talk about it anymore is an indication that there are some uncertainties. I think you did well to choose a local tailor, but the advantage in doing so is precisely the possibility to go through successive fitting sessions until the fit is right, at least on the first few commissions. The most important thing is not the fly, the direction of the pleats or the sleeve buttonholes, but the fit and the workmanship. If the fit is right, most other matters are details.
Yes, ignorance is bliss, but I think you opened Pandora's box the moment you doubted and decided to post here. I suppose this is not last suit you intend to commission and consequently an informed opinion based on a set of good pictures can only help you in the future.

Costi stated it very nicely

Working sleeve buttonholes...hallmark of bespoke but not essential

Button fly...traditional English look...totally preferential and non-essential

Forward pleats...look great if you wear suspenders and a must if you are a well fed

But it all comes down to fit and workmanship

You are too new into the game to fully understand workmanship...I've commissioned 12 bespoke suits and I'm still a novice learning

But fit is something only you can subjectively appreciate...and is a hallmark of bespoke

Explain to us the fit....say compared to your previous suits?

Explain to us the fitting process, skeletal fitting, forward fitting, any other fittings before the final fitting...etc.?

This site is therapy to help ease your stress and ensure your future purchases are well though out

sta welcome to the LL.

Have a look at this link on my website the article is called "how honest is your tailor?"

http://www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com/ ... /20060905/

It is one of the most popular articles on my tailoring website, and contains lots of pointers to spot the 'fake' tailors.

All the best Des Merrion.

Thank you for the replies. Below are some photos, sorry re read the post about daylight too late I hope that there is still enough to go at in the pictures.
Obviously any comments are welcome.




THE PICTURE OF A GROWN MAN SEEKING TO INITIATE FLIGHT BY BATTING HIS ARMS UPWARDS HAS BEEN CENSORED AS IT CONTAINS MATERIAL THAT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO THE SARTORIALLY AWARE; PLEASE LOOK FOR THIS KIND OF MATERIAL ON THE OTHER MAJOR SITES WHERE THE ORNITHOLOGICAL MEETS THE SARTORIAL

In answer to other posts, the fit easily surpasses my other suits and movement is much less restricted although raising my arms still seems to result in lots of material lifting up.
Thank you Des Merrion, your site was very informative.

I am slim and average height. with broad shoulders but 30 in waist.

The tailor assured me that my arms were long and shorter sleeves would be a mistake, consequently I have bought new shirts in order to show a little cuff.

I don't remember there being any spare material across my back in the tailors, and the 3 to 2 roll seems to make the lapel stick out slightly.

Hello Sta,
Sorry if I will be somehow callous, but there is a big problem with you suits back - the vents are not aligned and there is too much fabric floating around in the upper portion. I suggest that you take it back with your tailor and start to discuss the fit of your back, because it is not even closely to a good fitting RTW, not speaking of MTM or bespoke. He will not like that, because he will have to redo a lot of work, but he pledged a standard of quality that he is supposed to deliver. Look at the fit of M. Alden's back in the "How to post" thread and see what a well done coat should fit, not speaking about Des Merrion's back fit on his site (fiancee saw it so there will be hard time for my tailor). Good luck!

The vent is somehow folded back in this photo. I am appalled at the back now I have seen it and will just need to check whether my stance was somehow unnatural for the photo and then put some time in with the tailor.
Fortunately the other tailor I have spoken to seems more likely and suits are made totally on his premises by himself and his wife, he keeps the patterns of each customer, wish I'd checked him out first.

The back view photo shows a coat collar cut for someone with a very erect upper back--you can see that it is nearly horizontal if not a little concave in the center--while the shirt collar shows a convex rounding as if your neck was held at a more forward angle. The coat collar curve and the shirt collar curve should be perfectly congruent, so that the same amount of shirt collar shows all arond until the lapels fall away in front. Either you are leaning your neck forward unnaturally in that picture (as I suspect) or the neck was cut too low (perhaps you were standing unnaturally erect at the tailor's). The side view makes the collar look a little better, so your back-view posture may be the anomaly.

If you do have a very erect natural stance, it may be challenging to avoid a little rippling in the mid-back. But the excess drape in the photo is near the blades, so either your tailor has some adjusting to do, or you are holding your shoulders back unnaturally in the back-view photo, or both. The fact that the sleeves are not hanging cleanly at the upper rear also suggests that either you are holding your shoulders/arms back unnaturally, or the sleeve pitch needs to be adjusted.

Trouser length is a matter of personal preference, but it seems to me that you are not getting a clean line either at the front or rear crease in these photos, so I'd check to see that they are sitting at the correct height at the waist, and if so, perhaps shorten them slightly.

Despite these fit questions, the overall impression of the suit is not terrible. The button point looks good to me, and the sleeve length seems about right (although there's an odd bulge in your right sleeve (left side of the photo). If this is true bespoke, the tailor should be able to correct most if not all of the problems.

You should NOT get multiple errors with genuine bespoke, the odd one and slight tweaks yes, but big alterations..no

I am sorry to say that I am becoming absolutely mercenary with my opinions on the many so called 'bespoke tailors' that are around, these people are nothing less than a plague to my hard learned craft.

Couch's observations sound right to me. I also think it is a decent suit for your first MTM (or bespoke?... ) suit ever, but far from perfect. It is wearable, but there are some points that need attention.
The sleeve pitch is indeed off and it needs to be rotated forward a bit - this should eliminate the rippling on the sleeve head observable in the side picture, as well as the rippling in the back of the sleeve seen in the back picture. The sleeve length looks right.
You need to check what the back really looks like when you stand naturally. A coat may be cut with some drape in the back (although I see very little to none in the chest to match it), but the tailor must check where it is distributed. If he makes an alteration, see that he doesn't make your back too tight, either!
The scyes look too deep - ask for smaller ones next time, it will improve your comfort and freedom of movement.
Some style issues - slanted pockets on dark worsted city suits are not the best idea; also I would keep the lining quiet on a sober suit like this. When you buy more shirts, look for a more moderate spread in your collar: this will also improve the look of your tie knot.
I concur with the suggestion to shorten the trouser legs a bit, especially since they are rather tight at the hem, but otherwise they don't look too bad for the given style (non-pleated, low waisted, narrow legs).

storeynicholas wrote:Mind you, next time that she does a twirl, with a smile and asks "How do I look, then" just remember never to seek revenge by answering: "Very pleased" I confess that this joke is not original but it does seem so apposite![/i]

Heheee! I only read this now and couldn't help bursting into laughter - original or not, it is excellent!