The London Lounge

Did anyone else notice this article in today's Mail online?
Best,
Trout

'Bespoke' suits can now be made by machines after Savile Row tailors lose legal battle
Last updated at 1:29 PM on 18th June 2008
By Daily Mail Reporter


Tailors on Savile Row have lost a legal battle over their right to use the word "bespoke" to refer exclusively to hand-made suits.

The Advertising Standards Authority ruling means mass market retailers will be able to use the traditional craftsman's term to sell machine-cut creations at a fraction of the normal cost.

A bastion of English tailoring dating back more than two centuries, the Mayfair street has been patronised by the likes of Beau Brummel, Lord Nelson, Napoleon III, Winston Churchill and Prince Charles.

According to tradition the word bespoke originates from when customers would "speak" for a particular length of fabric.

Shops must offer a choice of more than 2,000 fabrics - with at least 50 hours of hand-stitching and several fittings going into a Savile Row bespoke to justify the £5,000-plus price tag.

But gentleman's tailors such as Henry Poole & Co and Davies and Son now face competition from modern upstarts selling "bespoke" suits for as little as £495.

Menswear retailers Sartoriani was referred to the ASA because it was advertising bargain bespoke suits as "uniquely made according to your personal measurements and specification".

The tailors argued the suits were not bespoke as, after an initial fitting in London where customers chose the style, the fabric is sent to Germany, where it is mostly cut and sewn by machine.

Sartoriani said customers were not being deceived into thinking they were getting a suit made to Savile Row standards.

The ASA upheld the company's claim that "bespoke" had moved on from meaning a fully handmade suit to simply a garment cut to a customer's measurements.

The retailer, based at 10 Savile Row, called the decision a victory for individuality and for "affordable luxury". The Savile Row Bespoke Association has criticised the ASA ruling, likening "bespoke" to the legally protected term "Champagne".

Chairman Mark Henderson, chief executive of Gieves &Hawkes, said: "I don't accept the man on the street understands the difference. You are looking at the difference between a fine painting and a print."

We no longer say "custom" because of long-standing abuse of the word. Now "bespoke" is to be employed to mean virtually whatever the speaker intends it to mean. Are we in Wonderland?

It's certainly a place where all is topsy-turvy ans back to front but I wouldn't quite call it 'Wonderland'
NJS

I view the ASA's ruling as the proverbial shot across our bow, making the LL even more important and relevant.
Best,
Trout

I dont actually understand how it can be called bespoke unless it is made in the way savile row does.

Shouldn't the ASA rule considering the "consumer"'s interest? Is the consumer better informed if no linguistical distinction is made between two different products?
It is like ruling that a beggar who is allowed to sleep long enough on someone's doorstep and begins to call it "home" should have equal rights with the owner of the house. Some victory for individuality!

I fear I am an outlier here. I am perfectly comfortable with the term bespoke being used to distinguish any garment made to the customer's individual pattern. So long as the pattern is entirely unique and not limited to minor alterations to a block pattern, the suit is bespoke. The method of manufacture is a different matter. In other words, there can be hand made bespoke and factory machine made bespoke. Just as beautifully hand--made suits can be bespoke or MTM or even RTW.

I will note that what Paul Winston calls MTM is really bespoke by my definition, even if he also sells what he calls bespoke for more money with more hand work and fittings. Same with Des Merrion.

It is just another symptom of dumbing-down and cheerfully cheapening-up for mass consumption of the fake, the throwaway: ready meals, burger bars, alcopops and all the rest of it - and now this. The substance and form of things matter less and less 'out there' in the Wild Wood: what things should be; their essential qualities are being lost in a welter of cynical advertising and chrematistically-driven labelling - which the ill-informed just accept as enough to define their values and ideals - and there we are. I agree with you, Costi. But, except for ourselves, there is nothing that can be done to stop this tsunami. It's a bit like the screen James Bond not smoking anymore - well, no one in a Bond film smoking anymore - but I note that he is still free to take down in two several Martinis on the trot and to cap them off with half a tumbler of whisky - down in one, despite the ferocious alcohol problems of the UK's population - but, hey, who cares?
NJS

this does go to show how important the London lounge is if it weren't for sites like this i would still think that a properly tailored suit was one using general measurements, it is up to people like the lounge members to help people to understand what the difference is between traditional bespoke and machine made bespoke.

Sartoriani do not make an individual pattern for their customers. They modify a pre-existing block pattern made according to some system of proportionate measure. Details of the judgement can be found here:

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications ... _44555.htm

I encourage all to launch their own private complaint to the ASA here:

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_compla ... ints_form/

If enough people complain, they may yet listen. The offensive use of the term "bespoke" under discussion can be found here:

http://www.sartoriani.com/art.php

ps could the OP or a moderator kindly modify the title of the thread to include the name "Sartoriani" so that this thread will be easier to find in a Google search.

Good innitiative, Sator - although I think the problem here is the ASA's decision. There are zillions of manufacturers like Sartoriani using the term "bespoke" abusively and we cannot fight them all individually. But has anyone noticed how the name Sartoriani seems a cousin of Michael Alden's Arty Gianni, the fake artisan?

As consumers, I believe we must help our artisans, by demanding our rights. We cannot leave them to fight the battle alone. If something is advertised as platinum, it should be platinum and not silver or stainless steel. Just saying that "everyone does the same thing" shouldn't be good enough. We should call misleading advertising what it is.

I am slightly confused now. Look at this quotation from English Cut:

Thomas Mahon wrote:3.
Make sure it’s hand-made. Yes, I know we use sewing machines for parts of the garment, but that should be where it ends.

When you keep talking about hand- as opposed to machine-made, are you saying that the sewing must also be by hand or not? I presume Mr Mahon does indeed sell 'bespoke', and am not accusing him of cutting corners (sorry).

The difference between bespoke and made-to-measure lies in the way the pattern is made, rather just in the amount of handwork. That is what Dopey has alluded to and I agree.

Bespoke means that a new pattern is drafted from scratch suitable only for the particular customer in question. MTM means that a pre-existing pattern of proportionate measure is tweaked so that the coat is made with alternations built in. The amount that a pattern can be tweaked has severe limitations before a new pattern has to be drafted.

Handwork in bespoke tends to imply pure needle-and-thimble handwork in the traditional sense. However, some use it to mean hand guidance of a cloth through a machine. A&S certainly use a machine on a lot of the long seams. There is a greater degree of automation with mass produced garments.

Does anyone do outer trouser seams by hand?
NJS