Frock coat - Sketches, please

[HappyStroller]

I was about to commission a frock coat, being inspired by our great eTutee's various articles covering the Guard's coat. However, all the illustrations show a pretty dark midnight blue coat where the details could not be seen clearly.

Could some kind gentlemen provide sketches showing what the rear half belt should look like and what the reverse pleat on the rear of the coat should be structured.

How should the cuffs look?

Also, what kind of lapels and/or collar should the coat have? Should the collar be lined with fur?

If double-breasted, how should be arrangement of the buttons look like? How many buttons should there be?

If there are pockets, how should they be cut and around which part or level of the coat should those pockets be located, e.g., above the waist line?

Should there be a defined waist line seam?

I am thinking of navy cashmere, which should be quite adequate for a Winter season ranging in temperature between 23 degrees Fahrenheit (-5 degrees Centigrade) to 41 degrees Fahrenheit (5 degrees Centigrade) with a rather formal suit under the coat.

[storeynicholas]

Fur collar? I am not sure that we would be talking about the same thing.
storeynicholas

[Algernon]

I think there might be some sort of confusion here due to the modern vagueness of the words coat and overcoat. The 'Guards' coat' is, I believe, an overcoat, and one could indeed wear it over a suit, as you suggest. A frock coat is something else entirely, and is worn as a coat in the sense of a suit coat. A search of the forum will reveal more information on the Guards' coat.

Algernon.

[Algernon]

PS - I'd personally avoid comissioning a frock coat - unless I had a treaty to sign at Versailles...

[storeynicholas]

I have to agree with Algernon on commissioning an actual frock coat. Duff Cooper wore one (as one would expect, with some aplomb) to the wedding of his son John Julius Norwich; the managers of the bankers, Coutts & Co used to wear them until the advent of 'cool britannia'; to wear one to one's own wedding might just about be acceptable, if the best man and ushers were similarly decked out; to wear one to another's wedding would be attampting to up-stage the groom and to wear one to a funeral would show a preoccupation with earthly cares and a disregard for the feelings of the bereaved. I am afraid that I would reluctantly accept that the frock coat has gone the way of the opera cloak, town spats (pace any august person who still dares) and belongs only in a metaphysical wardrobe.
storeynicholas.

[dopey]

Who writes the scripts for your costume dramas?

[storeynicholas]

Ha!

[RWS]

. . . . I would reluctantly accept that the frock coat has gone the way of the opera cloak . . . and belongs only in a metaphysical wardrobe. . . .

Of course, matters might be different in Shanghai . . . .

[HappyStroller]

Perhaps it was a matter of coincdence, but I had just commissioned a "frock coat" in Shanghai. Unfortunately, the "tailor" insist on a reverse pleat w/o vent on the back of the coat and I also decided not to waste too much breathe explaining to him how I wanted a pair of cloth-covered double-link buttons at waist level for the SB coat without one front edge overlapping the other. I think he also missed my point of having a waist seam, perhaps because the instruxtion was lost in translation. I consoled myself that his ouotput is fated to be worn only inside China, where no embarassment in wearing it is likely to occur for at least another decade.

[HappyStroller]

I woke up this morning expecting zero response to my query, only to receive such a pleasant shock to see such an overwhelming reaction.

You are of course right, Sir.

My mistake lay in stating that I wished to commission a frock coat, when my actual intention was to commission a guard's coat, which is of course an overcoat.

Perhaps, someone could confirm that the origin of eTutee's guard's coat is actually one of those British guards' great coats (it to be taken that not all great coats are of similar design to the said guard's coat, only a subset).

I think there might be some sort of confusion here due to the modern vagueness of the words coat and overcoat. The 'Guards' coat' is, I believe, an overcoat, and one could indeed wear it over a suit, as you suggest. A frock coat is something else entirely, and is worn as a coat in the sense of a suit coat. A search of the forum will reveal more information on the Guards' coat.

Algernon.

[HappyStroller]

Ahem, there'll be little chance of me attending the signing of the Treaty of
Versailles, as the Chinese delegation boycotted the final signing ceremony in accordance with the instructions of the Chinese government due to the unfair terms of that Treaty. That treaty lead to the May the Fourth Movement of 1919, where students of Yenching-Harvard University (or something like that) lead a mass demonstration at the Gate of Heavenly Peace.

I was planning for a future morning wedding where the bride groom wore a cutaway morning coat while the more senior parties (the fathers) wore frock coats. Unfortunately I have no beard and my moustache, if allowed to grow fully, will be exactly similar to those sported by all the terra-cotta warriors of the First Emperor of China and Fu Manchu.

I have to agree with Algernon on commissioning an actual frock coat. Duff Cooper wore one (as one would expect, with some aplomb) to the wedding of his son John Julius Norwich; the managers of the bankers, Coutts & Co used to wear them until the advent of 'cool britannia'; to wear one to one's own wedding might just about be acceptable, if the best man and ushers were similarly decked out; to wear one to another's wedding would be attampting to up-stage the groom and to wear one to a funeral would show a preoccupation with earthly cares and a disregard for the feelings of the bereaved. I am afraid that I would reluctantly accept that the frock coat has gone the way of the opera cloak, town spats (pace any august person who still dares) and belongs only in a metaphysical wardrobe.
storeynicholas.