The London Lounge

l've noticed that Oxxford can vary a fair bit. Some jackets are canvassed and others don't have any canvass at all. Some collars have more handwork and are detachable, others are not.

Detachable collar with more handwork



Non detachable collar with less handwork (Oxxford Black label)




Do all Oxxfords have ugly buttonholes?





Oxxford used to have Black Label, Crest and probably other ranges. They all seem to be constructed very similar but they all seem to be quite different (for some of the reasons l stated above).

Are Oxxford sportcoat collars normally different to suit jacket collars?

Any comments on Oxxford are very welcome. (Mark hint hint)

l.D.D

There is no difference in manufacture or "lines" among the Oxxford products.

E.g., Hickey Freeman has different lines of clothing. The lowest level is Hickey which is fused and is made for the "young" market of 20's to 30's. Hickey Freeman also makes fused suits for various department stores. The standard Hickey Freeman suit is the "Collection" which is a half canvas suit mostly machine sewn. The highest level is "Hand Tailored" which is a hand tailored suit.

Oxxford doesn't have these different lines. All Oxxfords, pretty much, have the same level of workmanship depending on the type of garment. The names Oxxford Crest, Gibbons, Manhattan, Radcliff, and Critiden refer only to the coat models. As compared to Ralph Lauren, Oxxford doesn't have different color labels to signify different levels of quality. There is no Oxxford black label, green label, purple label, etc.

Some coats are constructed differently because they serve different purposes. You mentioned that some coats do not have a canvas front. This is true. That coat is the Burnham (and I believe the Mason) which is a minimal structured coat which is almost a "shirt jacket." Zegna makes a similar type of coat. These are informal sportscoats. Padding is minimal, and there is minimal canvas in the chest and front sections. Incidentally, it is handmade. I own one, and it is a different look and feel than a traditional sportscoat.

Oxxford also has another unstructured sportscoat called the Rocco. It has self lining in the front and minimal to almost non-existing padding.

Both collars shown have the same amount of hand sewing. Both are attached by hand sewing. The top photo shows a machine line of stitches. I have never discerned a difference in the collars in my various Oxxford coats. Indeed, its handmade collar which hugs the neck is a hallmark of the brand.

As for the buttonholes, I do not see how the buttonholes are "ugly." They are double sided for strength, and they are an Oxxford hallmark.

Since Oxxford is a handmade garment there can be some variation from one 42R to another in fit. Each garment is individually cut and sewn.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask, or call the Oxxford Store, and mention my name.

Cheers.

Mark Seitelman wrote:There is no difference in manufacture or "lines" among the Oxxford products.

E.g., Hickey Freeman has different lines of clothing. The lowest level is Hickey which is fused and is made for the "young" market of 20's to 30's. Hickey Freeman also makes fused suits for various department stores. The standard Hickey Freeman suit is the "Collection" which is a half canvas suit mostly machine sewn. The highest level is "Hand Tailored" which is a hand tailored suit.

l never knew that. l thought all Hickeys were canvassed. That is very informative. l tend towards American suits because they fit me the best by far. Kiton, Borrelli and Brioni look aweful on me. l tried on a Kiton RTW last week.....the buttons were two inches above the buttonholes [no exaggeration].

Mark Seitelman wrote:Both collars shown have the same amount of hand sewing. Both are attached by hand sewing. The top photo shows a machine line of stitches. I have never discerned a difference in the collars in my various Oxxford coats. Indeed, its handmade collar which hugs the neck is a hallmark of the brand.

l so looove the way those Oxxford collars fit my neck.

Mark Seitelman wrote:As for the buttonholes, I do not see how the buttonholes are "ugly." They are double sided for strength, and they are an Oxxford hallmark.

l can't agree on that one. Check out the buttonholes on Borrelli etc......far far more elegantly done...no comparison.

Mark Seitelman wrote:Since Oxxford is a handmade garment there can be some variation from one 42R to another in fit. Each garment is individually cut and sewn.

Yes, i've found that out. l had one 42R fit me so bad (l had it sent to me.....never had a chance to try it on beforehand) that l had to get it completely taken apart and completely rebuilt, even the collar had to be completely thrown out. Other 42R coats have fit me really well and in need of no alteration.


My tailor tells me [funny enough] that Oxxford has more of an English style than American. What do you and others think about that theory?

Mark, you have always been one of my favourite posters. You really seem to know your stuff.

l should also add: Mark, your MTM Oxxfords look and fit better than many bespoke suits l have seen. You are very lucky to get a great fit out of MTM, other people [like me] aren't near as lucky. The Borrelli and Brioni guys have told me that MTM simply can't cater for my body type.

l.D.D

I can understand someone not being accustom, to the feel of the Oxxford button hole,
but to say it is ugly? The first time I felt an Oxxford, I twitched, they are firm and very present in their touch, but I am not sure it classifies as ugly.

I have taken a quick picture of my Borrelli and Oxxford button holes, both jackets in similar fabric. Can you define what makes it ugly please.



Borrelli:






Oxxford:

Dear Santoni:

Thanks for the kind words.

The Oxxford buttonhole is thicker because it's double sided. It's finished the same way on both sides, therefore the interior is finished the same way as the exterior. This makes the buttonhole thicker. The reasoning is to make it more durable. Some don't like this thicker buttonhole, and some customers have single buttonholes instead.

I'm in the same boat on Kiton. The few Kiton coats that I tried-on looked terrible. However, I have a Kiton Sport pea coat which is quite nice. I cannot wear Borrelli RTW, but I think that its MTM would work for me.

I couldn't offer an opinion as to whether Oxxford is more English looking than American. Some coat models do look English, however, some models are pure Americana, such as the Gibbons.

Since I know its coats fairly well and since I have had some coats from Davies & Son, I would say that Oxxford is actually more Italian than English in its inner structure. Oxxford's structure is very soft and pliable whereas Davies is a firmer garment. However, not all English suits are "hard" as evidenced by the Anderson & Sheppard school. Furthermore, I would say that Oxxford's design has more Italian influence by reason of its senior tailors being Italian.

Cheers.

Mark,

I rather like the Oxxford button hole, and I have my doubts that the Borrelli is always hand sewn. When you take a good look at the perfectly symetrical pattern, does it not look machine done to you?

I think that there is no question that Oxxford makes the most fabulously constructed buttonhole that I have ever seen. I personally prefer a more organically shaped hole like you see on Borrelli and most other Italian coats, but that is a stylistic difference.

To remark on one of Mark's other points re the soft nature of Oxxford and it's British or Italianness, I would have to say that while it has certainly gotten softer over the years, it does not have the fluidity of many Italian coats. It also does not have the stand at attention look of many British coats. Rather, it is still all-American in its very own way. I do wonder whether as the coats get softer if the double sided buttonhole which provides an extremely firm fulcrum does not begin to work against the other design features of the coat.

Mark Seitelman wrote:
Since Oxxford is a handmade garment there can be some variation from one 42R to another in fit. Each garment is individually cut and sewn.

Had another 42R Glen Plaid Oxxford 3 button arrive this morning [without having previously tried it on]. l'm slightly depressed; it's going to need alot of alteration. Eventhough it's my normal size 42, the shoulders are [alittle] too wide on this baby. My tailor can work miracles; lets hope he can on this one too. l might even post a before and after picture to show you how good this fellow is at his craft.


lf a jacket is a 42 T, what does the T stand for?

Santoni Man wrote:

Mark Seitelman wrote:
Since Oxxford is a handmade garment there can be some variation from one 42R to another in fit. Each garment is individually cut and sewn.

Had another 42R Glen Plaid Oxxford 3 button arrive this morning [without having previously tried it on]. l'm slightly depressed; it's going to need alot of alteration. Eventhough it's my normal size 42, the shoulders are [alittle] too wide on this baby. My tailor can work miricles; lets hope he can on this one too. l might even post a before and after picture to show you how good this fellow is at his craft.


lf a jacket is a 42 T, what does the T stand for?

42T stands for "tall." It means that the coat is proportioned for a taller person than a "regular".

I am guessing that you purchased the suit from eBay.

If you were to go to Neiman's or the Oxxford Store you will find subtle variations from one 42R to another due to model and the fact that each cut is a little different. However, on eBay your'e taking the chance that although the seller calls it a 42R it hasn't been taken-in so that it's really a 40R.

Good luck.

Me go to Neimans? haha, it'll take about 20 hours by plane to get there LOL. l buy new and used off ebay solely because l live near no Oxxford outlet and ebay is the only option open to me. Buying this way and working with my tailor has worked well so far. lt would be ideal to go custom bespoke (fully handsewn garment), but aghhh the prices.....a fair bit higher than the U.S guys (Rapheal, Corvato) charge.

Rather hard to truly evaluate a company this way.

I have one MTM Oxxford that is an absolute dream , it fits perfectly.
There is not one single detail I would change if given the chance.

Santoni Man wrote:Me go to Neimans? haha, it'll take about 20 hours by plane to get there LOL. l buy new and used off ebay solely because l live near no Oxxford outlet and ebay is the only option open to me. Buying this way and working with my tailor has worked well so far. lt would be ideal to go custom bespoke (fully handsewn garment), but aghhh the prices.....a fair bit higher than the U.S guys (Rapheal, Corvato) charge.

Zegnamtl: lt's really ironic, but the pictures you show of the Oxxford bottonhole actually looks nicer [in your picture] than the Borrelli. But in my experience the buttonholes [i've seen between the two], the Borrelli look nicer. My pictures of the Oxxford holes look quite different from your picture, mine are no way near as nice.....l wonder why they look so different??? Maybe it's just the picture, or maybe the suit cloth disguises the Oxxford bottonhole [in your picture] more.

Anyway, every artisan who has seen my bulky Oxxford buttonholes has been far from impressed. They have shown me examples of their buttonholes, and l must agree that they look far nicer.

Is it truth that Oxford will come to Europe now. They had a place at the Pitti show this month. Maybe the brand is a good one for UK but in Italy it is not known much.

My experience with Oxxford is quite limited and very recent, Mark S encouraged me to explore the company last fall.

There is no doubt that it is not "just the picture".
The Oxxford button hole on my jacket is beautifully done.
Albeit, as Mark described, double sewn, therefore very different and very present to the touch. Hence my inquiry as to how you define them as ugly.
Different I can certainly accept.

The Borrelli button is beautifully done also, but very different, I have my doubts at times that the Borrelli is hand sewn as the stitching is so perfectly symmetrical.
But that is just a rookie's guess, I would reserve final judgement for those far better equipped than I.

My doubts grew out of a mass production factory visit where rows of machines that stitch buttons and button holes to appear hand done were present, their work quick and remarkable, but clinically symmetrical.

Santoni Man wrote:Zegnamtl: lt's really ironic, but the pictures you show of the Oxxford bottonhole actually looks nicer [in your picture] than the Borrelli. But in my experience the buttonholes [i've seen between the two], the Borrelli look nicer. My pictures of the Oxxford holes look quite different from your picture, mine are no way near as nice.....l wonder why they look so different??? Maybe it's just the picture, or maybe the suit cloth disguises the Oxxford bottonhole [in your picture] more.

Anyway, every artisan who has seen my bulky Oxxford buttonholes has been far from impressed. They have shown me examples of their buttonholes, and l must agree that they look far nicer.

zegnamtl wrote:My experience with Oxxford is quite limited and very recent, Mark S encouraged me to explore the company last fall.

There is no doubt that it is not "just the picture".
The Oxxford button hole on my jacket is beautifully done.
Albeit, as Mark described, double sewn, therefore very different and very present to the touch. Hence my inquiry as to how you define them as ugly.
Different I can certainly accept.

The Borrelli button is beautifully done also, but very different, I have my doubts at times that the Borrelli is hand sewn as the stitching is so perfectly symmetrical.
But that is just a rookie's guess, I would reserve final judgement for those far better equipped than I.

My doubts grew out of a mass production factory visit where rows of machines that stitch buttons and button holes to appear hand done were present, their work quick and remarkable, but clinically symmetrical.

I have heard from a very reliable source that there is a buttonhole machine which does excellent work and has been adopted by some of the Savile Row tailors. This machine makes a buttonhole that looks pretty much handmade.

If this is the case, I have no doubt that the high-end Italians use it.