The London Lounge

Now a question for linguists with a knowledge of Italian dress history (aside: could this be the most arcane question ever asked in AAAC history:icon_smile: !). Kudos to anyone who can answer this question as it is driving me nuts trying to find the answer.

The Question:

What do you call a frock coat (as it was worn in the 19th century) in Italian?

So far I have come up with two different possibilities.

The first is cappoto dell'abito

http://wikipedia.qwika.it/en2it/Frock_coat

This is only a rough translation of what was orignially an English language Wiki page. Was it really called that in 19th century and early 20th century Italy or is this just an overly literal translation into English? Or should a 'cappoto dell'abito' really be just an alternative translation for a dress coat or a 'cappoto della coda'

The second possiblity is 'redingote' (which is the French word for a frock coat and a corruption of the English 'riding coat'):

http://www.noveporte.it/guestb_abbi/ric ... 20De%20Paz

See about 1/3rd of the way down the page:

Redingote: sf. francese (dall'inglese riding-coat, giacca da equitazione). Soprabito, a forma di giacca stretta in vita e lunga fino al ginocchio, derivato dal giustacuore. Comparsa in Inghilterra verso la metà del sec. XVIII come indumento per cavalcare (con falde posteriori aperte), si diffuse poi in Francia e in altri Paesi europei, anche nell'abbigliamento femminile, e fu usata secondo le epoche come abito o soprabito. Elemento fondamentale nel guardaroba ottocentesco, anche come capo elegante da cerimonia, la redingote è rimasta in uso nell'abbigliamento moderno come soprabito dalla linea aderente e dalla vita accentuata.


My partly cleaned up automated translation (my Italiano is pretty awful) goes something like this (nb I have translated 'giacca' into the British English 'coat'):

French (from English riding-coat, coat for horse-riding). Coat shaped like a morning coat [It: tight] and while still alive a long jacket until the ginocchio, derived from the giustacuore. Appeared in England towards the second half of the 18th century for riding (with open posterior stratums), it disseminated to France and then other European Countries, including into feminine apparel, and was secondarily worn like dress coat. Fundamental element in the nineteenth-century wardrobe, also an elegant ceremonial coat. The redingote remained in use in the coat modern apparel like the adherent line and the emphasized life

I can't guess a couple of the words and the end of the last sentence at all.

Here is an example of the use of the term redingote in Italian related to a miliatary styled frock coat:

http://80.205.162.234/thesaurus/struttu ... dnews=1646

The Russians, as usual in that language, borrow from the French word for the frock coat (рединготы–палто) but I would be rather surprised to find the Italians using the French word 'redingote'.

So what sayeth the wise sages of the London Lounge? BTW I have already tried asking my Italian tailor in the heart of Sydney's Little Italy and he had no idea.

Manton perhaps as he has read Marchiavelli for his thesis?

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

I've had a second go at the translation for you. Still unsure over some of the sartorial terminology, but the rest makes sense.


Redingote: sf. francese (dall'inglese riding-coat, giacca da equitazione). Soprabito, a forma di giacca stretta in vita e lunga fino al ginocchio, derivato dal giustacuore. Comparsa in Inghilterra verso la metà del sec. XVIII come indumento per cavalcare (con falde posteriori aperte), si diffuse poi in Francia e in altri Paesi europei, anche nell'abbigliamento femminile, e fu usata secondo le epoche come abito o soprabito. Elemento fondamentale nel guardaroba ottocentesco, anche come capo elegante da cerimonia, la redingote è rimasta in uso nell'abbigliamento moderno come soprabito dalla linea aderente e dalla vita accentuata.



French (from English riding-coat, coat for horse-riding). A type of overcoat with a narrow waist and of knee length, derived from the giustacuore (?). It emerged in England around the middle of the 18th century as a riding item (with opening back), spreading to France and other European Countries, including into feminine apparel, and was then worn both as a jacket or overcoat. An essential entry in the nineteenth-century wardrobe, as much as the formal cloak [not sure about 'capo' here, a very flexible word]. The redingote remains in use in modern apparel as an overcoat of close-fitting lines and accentuated waist.

Thank you for that. It is much better than the dog's breakfast of my amateurish attempt at fixing the automated translation.

Yes I see you have translated 'soprabito' into overcoat. I got that translation from my dictionary as well but the fact is a frock coat is a just that - a coat. It is NOT an overcoat. You wore a top frock coat over a frock coat. That is more a problem with the original text than the translation but I couldn't help but correct it.

So maybe redingote is the Italian word for a frock coat after all? The description of the coat is otherwise spot on. I wonder if they pronounced the 'e' at the end of the word thus creating an Italian variation on a French corruption of an English word!


Maybe they had multiple words for a frock coat. In English it was also called a Prince Albert frock and a surtout so why shouldn't the Italians have more than one term? The question is whether cappoto dell'abito might be the proper term for a dress coat (ie a tail coat for white tie) rather than a frock coat.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

For those Italians on LL who are wondering what a frock coat is here is my Wikipedia article on the garment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frock_coat

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

The Italian word for a frock coat is la redingote:

http://www.demauroparavia.it/92081

http://dellamoda.it/dizionario_della_mo ... ingote.php

http://www.wordreference.com/iten/redingote

Cappotto dell' abito has no real meaning.

The right italian term would now be "Marsina"; even redingote is right (pronounced differently than french) but today is meaning is that of a short overcoat.

Grazie Jona!

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

preobrazhensky wrote: ... An essential entry in the nineteenth-century wardrobe, as much as the formal cloak [not sure about 'capo' here, a very flexible word]. ...

For the mere sake of discussion, I would venture to interpret "capo" as "capo d'abbigliamento" (article of clothing). "Cloak" sounds more like an interpretation of "cappa". Therefore:

"An essential entry in the nineteenth-century wardrobe, also as an elegant formal garment, the redingote..."

The automated translation is incredibly funny (and totally confusing).

I was intrigued by "giustacuore" and found it to have an interesting etymology

No idea what the Italians [used to] call a frock coat, but I am ready to believe what Jona says! . Suggestion: giubba?

I found one text which suggested that Marsina is an older term. It appears to have been more the term used for "the frock" which I argue is a different garment to the "frock coat".

The frock = Marsina

The frock coat = redingote

The French call both of the une redingote, but it appears that it was imported into Italian somewhat later by which time it described the frock coat proper.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum