The London Lounge

Gentlemen,

I do hope that LL-members will forgive as I do realise that writing about money is not considered good form. As the title suggests, I need to touch the subject to illustrate my point.

I am a dutch law student, and in that capacity I do have a limited budget. That would be about 300 euros a month available for clothing. This is not much of a problem, as I am a near perfect 48 (trousers), 15,5 (shirts).

One of the problems I encountered in looking for shirts is that there are many brands which market the approach which can be described as 'define the collar size and have as many people as possible fit in the body' which causes excess fabric in the armpits or at the back of the shirt. This being the case I have chosen the path to adapt RTW shirts if needed. Brands that are feasible cost-wise are René Lezard, Armani and Corneliani, to name a few. One very important issue to me is branding. I do not wear any visible brands, as it is my believe that style should be visible, not readible.

I do have a few questions:

Cuff choices: I do not need to wear suits. Basically, a nice pair of trousers and a good shirt (no tie) is what I wear when I go out. Although I do like the idea of double cuffs, I would like to know if these are also used when not wearing a suit.

What to think of Borrelli? Their shirts go at 230 euros, which is pretty steep considered my budget. Are those value for money?

Please share your view of Charles Tyrwhitt. At 125 euros (180s superfine) or 100 euros (140 Sea Island), their prices are quite appealing to me. Should I only choose 180 or 140 or are 100, Twill and Pinpoint acceptable too? I need my shirts to be durable and comfortable. Since I am based in Holland, your opinions would mean much to me. That said, I will try to request samples first ofcourse.

Feel free to suggest other options which could fit my budget.

Regards,
Don

Edit: Removed surname as my posts were appearing in search engines

Hi,

please keep your hands away from Charles Tyrwhitt Shirts. I've tried one. Bad quality and the fitting is like a bag! You have to spend a lot of money for a tailor to bring the shirt in the perfect fit. For a limited budget I would suggest T M Lewin.
They have every couple of month a sale on their website. It's a very good quality for the money. I'm very pleased with the shirts from them.
Hope this helps.

I must agree with Dorian. I was surprised to find out CT has its shirts manufactured in Turkey at a factory that works for a few other less renowned (Italian) names. There happens to be an outlet in Bucharest selling this factory's production (all originals). A CT shirt sells for less than 40 EUR (compare to 100 in Holland), but then Turkey is so much closer here and the CT brand practically not marketed at all. I haven't tried any, so I can't tell you anything about cut/fit. The sewing/finishing didn't look bad. If they fit you well, it's fine; if not, given your budget, I should say the price is too high for what you get. When you're on a budget, you can't afford to spend a dime on a piece of garment that you might only wear a couple of times because it's not what you expected. Get one good bespoke (or at least good MTM) shirt rather than 2 or 3 average-looking and -fitting ones, especially if you wear them without a jacket - good fit becomes paramount. You won't regret having few (even too few) good quality pieces of clothing, rather than a closet full of trash and nothing decent to put on when you need it most.
Double (French) cuffs call for a jacket at the very least (may be used to "dress up" a more casual look - odd trousers and jacket, perhaps an ascot and/or pochette -, but not as an everyday style), if not really for suit and tie.

Dorian271 wrote:For a limited budget I would suggest T M Lewin. They have every couple of month a sale on their website. It's a very good quality for the money. I'm very pleased with the shirts from them.
Hope this helps.

I am positively surprised by their return policy. I just might benefit from their current offer. I have got a splendid taylor who can work wonders with a shirt.

Regards,
Don

PS. Is your nickname inspired on Oscar Wilde?

Edit: Removed surname as my posts were appearing in search engines

Costi wrote:I must agree with Dorian. I was surprised to find out CT has its shirts manufactured in Turkey at a factory that works for a few other less renowned (Italian) names. There happens to be an outlet in Bucharest selling this factory's production (all originals). .

I have a CT shirt bought in London which has 'Made in Romania' on the label. Maybe they have an even shorter distance to travel. How's the English bar at the Athenee Palace?

I think CT manufactures in different countries depending on the line, or fabric / quality level. I have two CT shirts, purchased about 3 years ago in their first NY store: one is made in Romania, the other, better fabric, is made in Italy. If this is important, give their customer service a call and see what they say.

In addition to Lewin, you might want to also check Hilditch and Key and Coles Shirts, especially during their sales.

Finally, if you get to a size you like - whether RTW or altered by your tailor - you might want to try one of the internet-based MTM sites who work either from measurements you provide or who will copy a shirt you send them. I don't know the current reputation, but Jantzen tailoring's shirts were held in high regard on other fora - but be forewarned their customer service was reported to be atrocious (that is, long waits for the shirts and no communication). But at somewhere around 40 Euro a shirt, it might be worth the effort. I'vr also seen sites for Patro and Stefanelli, in Italy but have no experience with any of these.
Good luck!

jekarwoski wrote:
In addition to Lewin, you might want to also check Hilditch and Key and Coles Shirts, especially during their sales.

I have my shirts made at Coles and am very pleased with the results. I've also bought ready made shirts from their sister company Jermyn shirts who seem to have a permanent sale, as I undersdand it they sell off the last few shirts of a particular material at half price to make way for new materials. http://www.jermynshirts.com/

Outrigger wrote:

jekarwoski wrote:
In addition to Lewin, you might want to also check Hilditch and Key and Coles Shirts, especially during their sales.

I have my shirts made at Coles and am very pleased with the results. I've also bought ready made shirts from their sister company Jermyn shirts who seem to have a permanent sale, as I undersdand it they sell off the last few shirts of a particular material at half price to make way for new materials. http://www.jermynshirts.com/

I've ordered 2 weeks ago a lightblue herringbone shirt by the sister company.
Fantastic shirt for a great price.

I have my shirts made at Coles and am very pleased with the results. I've also bought ready made shirts from their sister company Jermyn shirts who seem to have a permanent sale

Thank you for the clarification on the relationship between Coles and Jermyn Shirts. I do receive email notifications about the sales, and one arrived just this morning.

Percy.Trimmer wrote:

Costi wrote:I must agree with Dorian. I was surprised to find out CT has its shirts manufactured in Turkey at a factory that works for a few other less renowned (Italian) names. There happens to be an outlet in Bucharest selling this factory's production (all originals). .

I have a CT shirt bought in London which has 'Made in Romania' on the label. Maybe they have an even shorter distance to travel. How's the English bar at the Athenee Palace?

To tell you the truth, I never went in I have my hair cut at the Athenee Palace - but that's on the other side of the building. I dined there a few times (nothing memorable), but never visited the bar (not much of a drinker, either). When did you visit Bucharest - or is it from stories that you know the place?

Sorry for the off-topic conversation...

Costi wrote:Get one good bespoke (or at least good MTM) shirt rather than 2 or 3 average-looking and -fitting ones, especially if you wear them without a jacket - good fit becomes paramount. You won't regret having few (even too few) good quality pieces of clothing, rather than a closet full of trash and nothing decent to put on when you need it most.

Hello Costi, jekarwoski and fellow LL-members,

Taking your answer in mind I critically reviewed my shirt collection and I am going to combine your approach and adapt RTW shirts that are worth it. I have got a few Oxfords which feature a good cotton quality but could be improved with regard to the fit.

Furthermore, I am going to expand my shirt collection slowly but steadily with Borrelli shirts, which are MTM. I chose Borrelli because I noticed that other brands (Corneliani, Jaques Britt) have problems with the armholes being cut too low. At least that seems apparent on the OTR variants while the OTR Borrelli shirts are a close, if not a perfect cut in general and especially with regard to the armholes. Besides it'll motivate me to keep in shape! I'll try a few Barba shirts as well to see if they are any good. I am very much open to suggestion with regard to other MTM or bespoke shirt makers which do deliver quality that can be compared or will even surpass Borrelli.

jekarwoski wrote:In addition to Lewin, you might want to also check Hilditch and Key and Coles Shirts, especially during their sales.

Finally, if you get to a size you like - whether RTW or altered by your tailor - you might want to try one of the internet-based MTM sites who work either from measurements you provide or who will copy a shirt you send them. I don't know the current reputation, but Jantzen tailoring's shirts were held in high regard on other fora

I would like to know which fora you are mentioning? Currently, I have only found in the LL to be a source of information that inspires a certain amount of thrust. On the other fora I do read quite a bit information that is (way) off, at least from my point of view. Haven't had that happening to me in the LL.

That being said, when my measurements are taken for the Borrelli MTM shirt(s), it won't hurt to try Jantzen/Coles/Lewin, depending on what's on offer through the internet. Thyrwitt is out of the window, not only based on the information I got here, but based on first hand experience as well: when I asked a question their support team couldn't answer right away, they promised to have me contacted within 48 hours, which didn't happen. To me, the process which precedes and follows upon the sale itself (in flashy marketinglingo 'pre- and aftersales') matter as much as the actual sale itself.

Regards,
Don

Costi wrote:

Percy.Trimmer wrote:

Costi wrote: How's the English bar at the Athenee Palace?

To tell you the truth, I never went in I have my hair cut at the Athenee Palace - but that's on the other side of the building. I dined there a few times (nothing memorable), but never visited the bar (not much of a drinker, either). When did you visit Bucharest - or is it from stories that you know the place?

Sorry for the off-topic conversation...

No mustn't go off thread. I was just intrigued to hear from Bucharest. I travelled there regularly in the communist period when the old English Bar was just a memory and the staff at the hotel (all Securitate) had never heard of it. I was back last year and discovered it had been 'recreated'. I hope to return for a short visit soon. Where does the elegant chap go now for cocktails?

DonB:

One caution with Lewin shirts: the collars are tight. I'm an easy 14.5 in almost every make I've tried (not that the list is so wide-ranging), but I could barely button the Lewins, and I tried three different shirts in the same size. Based on threads in other fora, I was not alone in this experience.

Tyto wrote:DonB:

One caution with Lewin shirts: the collars are tight. I'm an easy 14.5 in almost every make I've tried (not that the list is so wide-ranging), but I could barely button the Lewins, and I tried three different shirts in the same size. Based on threads in other fora, I was not alone in this experience.

Thank you for the heads up! What allowance should be taken into account in your experience?

Regards,
Don

DonB,

I was referring to StyleForum and Ask Andy About Clothes (SF and AAAC, respectively). I no longer read the former - gave up about the time they had to migrate to new resources due to overutilization (and they added a Denim category. Nothing against jeans, but an entire category?). I browse AAAC every so often, and a recent post here re: trouser waistbands mentioned a thread in AA.