The London Lounge

Please consider this post a trial balloon. It is, in large part, my notes to myself on a subject I know little about. While I hope it is useful or interesting to you, it will be more interesting and useful to me if you provide your comments and corrections (in fact, note the comment at the end- I may have this all wrong).

Many discussions on what elements comprise a well-made tie note that that the silk should be cut “on the bias”, which I understand to mean that the tie pattern is laid out so that the tie drapes at roughly a 45 degree angle to the direction in which it was woven. And while I have never worn a Marinella tie, tie, I have heard near universal praise for the product from people whose judgment I respect. Yet I have also heard complaints from at least one member that Marniella ties are not cut on the bias. What to make of this? I think the answer is fairly obvious, but bear with me.

A few days ago, I had the opportunity to examine a large number of Marinella ties at the premises of fourinhand.com. Apart from the general beauty of the ties and the surprising range of their design, I noticed something relevant. Many ties, indeed, appeared to be not cut on the bias. Some, on the other hand, were. Despite the variety, one thing was consistent. The ties seemed well crafted and when draped in my hand appeared to flow and hang nicely without any twisting. Of the ties that appeared not to be cut on the bias, some were laid out with the tell-tale ribbing aligned vertically and some with the ribbing lain horizontally. At least one, a satin, was indeterminate to me. The only conclusion I could come to was that the ties were cut and sewn in a manner that worked for the silk being used and in most cases that meant cut not on the bias.

Here are some examples (I snatched these from the fourinhand site without permission so they may not last):

First, a tie cut on the bias

Notice how you can see the weave running at a 45 degree angle (perpendicular to the colored stripes).

Now a tie with the ribbing running up and down.

Is this cut on the bias? I don’t know. Can you judge by the ribbing, or do you look at the diagonal pattern in the little stars? What about this one? On the bias or not?


I can’t find any with pictures of ones with Horizontal ribbing, but I am fairly sure I saw some.

One thing that seemed to clear to me is that regardless of the direction of the ribbing, the tie seemed to be cut the way the pattern dictated. Since the tie draped well, that presumably means that the silk was designed to drape with the ribbing horizontal or vertical as dictated by the pattern. You can see that the pattern, not the ribbing dictates the cut of the silk most easily from this picture:

Clearly, rotating the silk would not work very well.

Despite the length of this post, I really I only have one point to make - cutting on the bias does not appear to be such a key critical element in the quality of the tie. The important factor seems to be the matching of the weave to the way the silk will be cut as dictated by the pattern at the time the silk is designed.

How about these? Bias cut or not?
Satin:

[EDIT:] I just noticed something. I am, today, wearing a charvet tie, which like many of their ties, is a satin weave with a repeating geometric figure pattern. The pattern is created by “floating” strands of silk in a different color and direction above the main weave. The direction of weave is obvious from the floating strands and the insertion points. In the case of my Charvet tie, the silk has clearly been cut on the bias. Without the floating stands, I was unable to discern the direction of the tight weave on the Marinella plain satin, but if they also did Charvet style patterns with their satins, it would be easy to tell.

or Macclesfield:



One final comment. Everything I wrote here is based on observation with very little real knowledge. I could have everything wrong, in which case I would be delighted to be corrected. For example, I have a sneaking suspicion that someone will say that the three ties with vertical ribbing are cut on the bias. If that is so, please tell me how I can identify the weave direction and how I can tell when a tie is or isn’t cut on the bias. I welcome any discussion on the topic.

OK. This is the real final comment. I noticed that the printed Marinella ties (the three with the vertical ribbing, for example) all had a very dry, stiff, almost rough hand. That is very different from all of my other print ties. What is that, and why is that?

Interesting.

I am in now way a tie expert, but I do own a fair number of ties. In my personal stash, almost 100% of my printed silk ties have the grain of the silk running parallel or perpendicular to the ground. These ties include Marinella, Kion, Borrelli, Drakes and others. I do not, however, know if this constitutes ties not cut on the bias, as I don't know that much about tie construction.

I do feel comfortable saying that the service that I have received from Fou in Hand has been A++ in all respects.

The above ties are all but one (probably) cut on the bias. The solid satin one I cannot know from the photo.

In the first example you question (the second image), think of a cotton twill cloth. The angle of many twills runs at a 45° angle to the selvedge. Now picture the tie pattern lain down on the twill - also at a 45° angle to the selvedge. Voila! The tie is on the bias and the lines of the twill are running straight down the tie. Similarly, for your first image, picture a corduroy or a line pique. Lines parallel to the selvedge. Tie pattern lays at the bias angle and the lines run at an angle across the tie.

Ties must normally be cut on the bias. Woven fabric stretches on the bias and does not stretch on the straight or cross grain. The stretch is an essential ingredient in a tie.

I said:

dopey wrote:. . . [f]or example, I have a sneaking suspicion that someone will say that the three ties with vertical ribbing are cut on the bias.

I should have known that someone would be you, Alex. Thanks.

Is it safe to say that the way to tell if a tie is cut on the bias is by checking to see in which directions it stretches. A properly cut tie should stretch a bit if tugged lengthwise or widthwise but should feel locked if tugged at a 45 degree angle - correct? (I am talking about a gentle tugging and a little springiness.)

I did a sample test with five or six different brands (alas no Marinella for me) and they were all cut "correctly" by this standard. It didn't matter whether the ribbing ran vertically, horizontally or at a diagonal - the tie maker knew which silk was woven which way and cut accordingly. They all had a bit of give along the length and width but none along the diagonal. It seems like I know have one less thing to worry about.

I suspect whoever has been complaining about Marinella ties (you know who you are) was suffering from the same confusion as I was.

If anyone has a tie that is not cut on the bias - based on the stretch test - I would be curious to hear a full description.

If anyone has a tie that is not cut on the bias - based on the stretch test - I would be curious to hear a full description.

I have made a couple. I was experimenting with taking Regimentals and making straight vertical stripes of them. They feel more like belts than ties - rigid rather than flexible. They don't hang very straight and the knot is always kind of "lumpy".
Please don't say anything about this to Manton. He's always good for getting rid of some of this odd stuff at reduced prices.

Why is it good for ties to stretch lengthwise? I would have thought that this would be something you'd want to avoid.

Great thread, Dopey.

Alex, if I'm understanding your explanation correctly, the "bias" about which we are talking is with respect to the selvedge, not the twill lines--so that if a tie is cut 45 degrees to the selvedge and the twill is 45 degrees to the selvedge, this would explain the vertical or horizontal weave lines. N'est pas? But for me that raises the question of just what the selvedge is. Can you define this wrt tie silk? In my ignorance, I had always thought of selvedge as representing the border of a piece of cloth.

AlexanderKabbaz wrote:

I have made a couple. I was experimenting with taking Regimentals and making straight vertical stripes of them. They feel more like belts than ties - rigid rather than flexible. They don't hang very straight and the knot is always kind of "lumpy". . .

Not exactly a repp stripe, but a similar idea.

I think this silk could be cut to have the stripes run vertically. Notice that I am learning here, Alex. While the ridges are horizontal, I can also see that the weave itself runs on the diagonal. I think even with the twill ties I showed above, with the ridges running vertically, the weave itself is on the diagonal. I don’t think the resolution on the photos are good enough to see that, but I am wearing today a Pucci print tie with a horizontal twill. If I look carefully, I can see that the horizontal ridges are made up of threads running diagonally (cut on the bias).

I think this silk could be cut to have the stripes run vertically.

You are correct. As long as the bias cutting is adhered to, it doesn't matter which direction of bias is selected.

Answering various questions:
If a tie is rigid (cut not on the bias but with the grain direction) it will not hang straight or knot well.

The selvedge is, as someone surmised, the border of the cloth shown here:



The regular (not a seven-fold) tie pattern is laid out on the cloth as follows. Shown are the following:
1] The large (front) blade of a bottleneck tie
2] The small (rear) blade
3] The trapezoidal connecting piece between front and back sometimes used when making longer-than-average ties
4] The front blade tip piece
5] A random bow tie



And a finished tie showing the effect of the bias cut. This a straight (non-bottleneck shaped) tie:

Alex, thanks for the clarification. I'm glad that Dopey started this thread as I (and undoubtedly many others) have been wondering the same thing. Its clear from your explanation and the pictorial display that we should understand the "bias" with respect to the selvedge of the cloth, rather than with respect to the twill or weave lines. BTW, that tie looks familiar. Is it one of David Hober's--perhaps the forum tie for a certain forum?

BTW, that tie looks familiar. Is it one of David Hober's--perhaps the forum tie for a certain forum?

No. It's an old one of our designs I made in '92 or '93. The silk is Swiss, not Thai.

Great post Alex, most illuminating. How would a seven fold differ in its construction?

Great post Alex, most illuminating. How would a seven fold differ in its construction?

The tie pattern I photographed is designed to be lined with a wool interlining as are most better ties. (The less-than-better use non-wool interlinings).

The pattern for a seven-fold is larger as there is no interlining used. The silk is folded back over itself (a total of 7 folds) to give the tie weight and heft. Personally, I prefer lighter, wool-lined ties and thus do not make seven-fold ones.

Edit:
Perhaps David, who does this much more frequently than I, might post a link to his wonderful "How To Make A Necktie" description?

Alex, after noodling your answers, I have another question about selvedge. What is it in a fabric that determines the angle at which the selvedge is cut? Is it always parallel to the warp? the weft? Is there perhaps some other structural component in fabric that determines the line or angle of the selvedge? From Dopey's displayed tie with the silk ridges running vertically, it must be the case that the selvedge is not parallel to these ridges--if indeed the tie is cut on a bias to the selvedge--(although the two are parallel in the cloth that you displayed). This, in turn, would seem to suggest that the twill ridges in a fabric need not run parallel to the selvedge. Can you explain a little further here?