The London Lounge

I think that some Summer suits can look quite stylish sans tie.

But the trick to successfully dress down a suit is to find the right shirt.

A dress shirt doesn't work.

My thinking is that a soft collar, button cuffs, breast pocket (or 2) , appropriately casual fabric (linen, blends) and perhaps brighter or shinier fabric would help make the transition from business suit to casual.

Any thoughts on what's needed to help make a suit without tie succeed.

I find that the only presentable alternative to a tie, especially when wearing a suit (therefore any shirt simply unbuttoned, showing the bare neck and perhaps some chest hair, too, is not acceptable) is to wear a silk ascot. Of course, it doesn't keep much cool in summer, but neither does the jacket (if one insists on wearing a suit). Match it with a silk pochette recalling some colours from the suit / shirt / ascot and there you are your dressed-down suit. As for the shirt, personally I would put on a linen one (as you suggested) with HIDDEN buttons button-down collar, which helps the collar maintain its upright position even when the top button is unbottoned, preventing it from unaesthetically sliding under the collar of the coat, while at the same time maintaining a notch of formality above the polo button-down collar.

In London, I find that suit without tie is often the only acceptable uniform for me when going to places where a tie could make others feel uncomfortable. The suit has to be dark, single breasted and of superfine fabric. I prefer a navy herringbone. It must be an "evening suit". It is also an evening look, and I never wear suit without tie before six. The sole exception may be summer linen, but that is a different story.

The shirt I chose is a normal double cuff, cutaway collar dress shirt. But there must be no creases from a tie, so a fresh shirt. I prefer pink S200s poplin, or mid blue end on end S200s. Sometimes a S200s poplin in a darker hint of blue than I would be comfortable with when wearing a tie (the dark shirt and paler tie look always reminds me of the less reputable sectors of the economy).

An important point for me is buttoning: the shirt must be cut so as to allow the collar button and one button underneath unbuttoned without gaping. Only the collar button undone to me looks like an accountant or actuary pretenting to be cutting edge, chest hair showing is the preseve of medaillon man, a near forgotten relative of the now extinct Neandertal species.

I like ascots, but at this time they would appear affected in London (at least on anybody under fifty). I sometimes can get away with them with a crew neck pullover when skiing, but that's about it. New York may be different in this respect. Germany liked them in the eighties, but not since.

Finally, one of the most important items, as Costi rightly pointed out: the pocket handkerchief. Trying to impersonate the AA observer of the thirties in today's London, I note that any man of style and breeding spotted in town in the evening without a tie wears a silk handkerchief. Linen would be too formal and suggest the tie is missing. It will be of a contrast colour to suit and shirt: without the tie, matching the shirt colour would leave us short of one contrast, matching the suit would remove it completely, visually. So it will be a colour that contrasts with both shirt and suit. Say dark claret for a navy suit and pink shirt, or a yellow or white tone for a mid blue shirt and dark blue suit. White is an option if the shirt is not white. The handkerchief will be worn prominently, and not in a square fold. After all it must replace the visual interest normally offered by the tie.

The above may seem a bit pedantic, but if you observe those around you, sans tie, I trust you will come to the same conclusion.

TVD wrote:Trying to impersonate the AA observer of the thirties in today's London, I note that any man of style and breeding spotted in town in the evening without a tie wears a silk handkerchief.

A splendidly useful observation, TVD. Thank you. I've struggled with how to effectively balance wearing a suit without a tie. The silk handkerchief is perfect.

There are a few situations where a tie feels out of place to me.... too business.

Yes, in the evening, at a club, bar or casual restaurant where people are off duty.

Also on a city vacation, during the day or evening.

But if one is accustomed to wearing a suit or sports coat, one would typically shed the tie but keep the suit.

Definitely, a silk pouchette is required at all times - something imaginative, whimsical or bold but not business.

We then turn to the appropriate shirt.

I don't personally like a business shirt when worn without tie. The shirt would feel incomplete to me without a tie.

So what turns a business suit into a casual yet elegant statement?

I think that the ideas are good - a button down collar because it stays up; as well as to unbutton several buttons but on a shirt which doesn't fall open. I agree, I couldn't wear an ascot at this time either unless you have adopted that style and are enjoying the evening with friends.

What about bold patterns or on the other hand a beautiful plain fabric with a bit of sheen; something that you wouldn't wear for business and something that doesn't make you look as if you just came from the office.

So if one is having some shirts made for a particular suit, is it worthwhile to have both business and casual shirts made to go with that suit?

Are the shirts going to be cut to different patterns, presumably, the business shirt slimmer while the casual more blousy?

I would guess that the shirts need to be fundamentally different in terms of fabric, cut and details to successfully transition the business suit to casual, either day or night.

Dear Uppercase,

you are the one who would look great with an ascot or silk foulard. I think you could pull it away easily.

About shirts: I agree, no dress shirt, and no solid white. Vyella for winter or striped linen for summer.

You know, I have just had the pleasure of discovering how wonderful and versatile an ascot can be!

I bought several - my first - on a recent vacation, and found myself wearing them daily and after that, I honestly felt undressed without them when not wearing a tie.

Their use and appearance could not have been more appropriate when the situation does not call for a tie. They add that little touch of extra attention to one's appearance when going casual which just makes you feel and look better.

They really do add a finishing touch to an open neck shirt and provide welcome warmth in the colder months as well.

I was surprised, frankly, to see the pleasant difference that they make to an open neck shirt but now, I'm converted and looking to buy a few more.

Button down, linen shirts, with collars which stand up, would be perfect in the Summer.

I don't know if an ascot would be too hot or how it would exactly appear with Summer wear in the hot months.

I'm going to try it out, just as soon as I can find some open neck shirts whose collars will stand up.

Uppercase:
My fascination with non-dress shirts for summer has taken a different approach. I have been working with Robert Whittaker at Dege to do a Lido collar (as he calls it; Alex Kabbaz calls it an Italian collar and does it beautifully, others have called it a one-piece collar). This collar is loose, meant to be only worn open and is very soft. It certainly will not stand up. It was not conceived for wear with a suit or jacket, and I would be surprised if it can be done so successfully. Nonetheless, I will certainly give it a try with a jacket just to see how it looks. I have been promised that delivery is imminent.

I will let you know if I think it is a viable option for your purposes.

Yes, Dopey, I recall seeing a photo from Kabbaz illustrating his Italian collar and I was impressed with it.

More suitable to wear with trousers alone; couldn't see it with a coat.

I picked a few up last Summer from Ralph Lauren PL, not knowing what the collars were called at that time, but it is certainly a stylish alternative to other casual Summer shirts. Because the collar
is very open,I wore it most often to the beach last year as it is so relaxed and casual, that is where it seemed most suited for there.


But I think the real sartorial challenge for myself is to find a good looking collar to wear sans tie but with a coat; I generally enjoy wearing a sports coat always regardless of the occassion.

I'm having a high collared, button down collar in Carlo Riva fabric made now for Summer with a somewhat more blousy fit than a business wear shirt and we'll see how that turns out when it's finally finished.

uppercase wrote:. . . I picked a few up last Summer from Ralph Lauren PL, not knowing what the collars were called at that time, but it is certainly a stylish alternative to other casual Summer shirts. Because the collar is very open,I wore it most often to the beach last year as it is so relaxed and casual, that is where it seemed most suited for there. . . .

I also bought two of the RLPL shirts with this collar out of curiosity. I was very impressed with the design, and used it exactly as you did - at the beach. Unfortunately, the experience made it clear that RTW just doesn’t work well for me.

uppercase, I'm glad that you have come to share my appreciation of ascots. I feel that I look rather unpresentable, even for leisure time, with a jacket over a simply unbuttoned shirt the opening of which is not filled with an ascot. It may also be a function of how visible one's chest hair is (already visible with one button open, up to none at all).
On the beach, of course, it is an entirely different matter - as it is in general during the summer months. With the risk of being repetitive, an ascot IS too hot for summer - but then so is the coat of a suit, if you insist on wearing one. IMO, if you want to wear a suit in summer for a non-business occasion you can replace the tie with an ascot (if the ensamble looks good to the eye), but with the only purpose of reducing the formality; if you want to be comfortable and not too hot - forget about the suit rather than go out with a maimed look. If the weather isn't unbearably hot and humid and especially if it's breezy, the ascot + light jacket / suit can very well be worn in summer.
The kind of shirt that dopey described is wonderful in hot climates and on informal (outdoor) occasions (supposed to be numerous in summer), and looks good as it is cut to be worn open (I'm afraid you won't be impressed, dopey, when you see it under the lapels even of a linen summer jacket...).
As for the kind of collar that stays up, may I illustrate with the picture below (I'll try to take a better one where the cut of the collar is visible) the hidden button-down style that I prefer under a jacket because I feel the buttons' not showing on the face of the collar makes it less casual:

I must admit I never tried any open collar shirts. But looking back through old photographs, there was a time in the thirties when the jeunesse doree wore these for informal outfits. Either without a jacket / suit, or worn over the collar of the jacket. Maybe somebody should experiment. Not me though.

Just saw some Ralph Lauren shop window whose design could have been taken straight out of the summer illustrations from AA that etutee kindly furnished in his articles. Loose white linen trousers, summer pullover, spotted handkerchief knotted around the neck. Very much sailor style, most suitable for the Cote d'Azur.

First, I can't tell you what a revelation it was to begin wearing an ascot recently.

So comfortable to wear an open neck shirt under a coat, yet so finished and elegant looking with the ascot.

Infact, I feel now that the ascot has an edge over the tie in terms of conveying casual elegance, and inspiring well being and contentedness in its wearer.

To me, the tie says and feels 'business'. The ascot, relaxed, confident elegance; a man not on duty but engaged with himself and the world in a welcoming way.

Next vacation, I will be sure to pack a few ascots and leave the ties at home except for one black grenadine tie which works with everything.

As to Summer shirts, well, there's lots to do there and work out.

I think that Summer can present just as many interesting sartorial possiblities as Autumn/Winter; it needn't be a down period, even for the hearty tweed enthusiasts found in abundance at LL.

Just avoid displaying that black grenadine tie if you spend your next vacation in Naples & surroundings, lest you might receive some "deepest sympathy" looks. They have a special relationship with black there, don't they...

Costi wrote:Just avoid displaying that black grenadine tie if you spend your next vacation in Naples & surroundings, lest you might receive some "deepest sympathy" looks. They have a special relationship with black there, don't they...

I didn't know that.

Are black ties considered funereal in Italy? How about elsewhere?

Perhaps, I'll have to change that 'go to' tie, to blue grenadine!