The London Lounge

Esteemed club members,

I have recently become a registered user of the LL - for which I warmly thank mister Alden - and so I face the dillema of conceiving my very first post: should I start with a question (and I do have many to ask), or rather with a statement? - given the technical impossibility of actual bidirectional conversation that is normally associated with fresh acquintances. I decided for the latter, being in a position where I must introduce myself.
This will not, however, be a typical introduction of oneself, but rather in keeping with the common subject that brings us all together here. And, to keep it spontaneous, why not subject to your crytical analysis whatever I happen to be wearing today. Please excuse the quality of the pictures - they were taken with a mobile phone and then e-mailed to my desktop PC to make them available for posting




This dark blue 6x2 DB navy blazer in medium weight cloth (I think the diagonal weave makes it a gabardine but it is not too heavy) was commissioned to a Romanian tailor about a year ago. Initially I had it made just to be prepared for the specific occasions when a blazer may or should be worn. However, enjoying the result of the tailor’s work and unhappy with the infrequency of the proper occasions for wearing it, I started breaking the rules (or rather stretching them), putting the blazer on to give a touch of elegance (dark, DB coat) to my outfit for various afternoon leisure social gatherings. The suppressed waist does not leave much room for weight gain and, being DB and therefore never worn unbuttoned, it keeps me watching my silhouette . I chose to have it cut with side vents for the convenience of easily inserting my hands into my trouser pockets (which particularly helps one who has recently quit smoking and has trouble finding something to do with their hands).
The lapels are not as wide as I would have liked them, but there was little left to be done after the coat was cut. The coat is hand-canvassed and traditionally constructed through all details. The buttons are 14K gold-plated brass with a dark blue enamel center (which keeps the shine to a a decent level) and the golden contour of an anchor showing through the enamel. I remember finding it difficult at the time to choose the buttons and, since I am neither of such noble birth to have a family coat of arms, nor am I a member of any sports club that makes custom blazer buttons, I decided the only sound choice had to do with the origins of the coat. I have heard many voices against anchor-design blazer buttons, but in my opinion it remains a valid choice if one is not in a position to display any other socially significant image.

The shirt is made of poplin with alternating 1 mm thin blue-and-white (sort of a very fine “salt and pepper” that looks grey) and solid white stripes, with a cutaway collar (sustained by extractable collar stays) and a two-piece yoke cut on a bias.

I find this design very pleasing both aesthetically (especially when working with striped cloth) and from the point of view of comfort. Particularly if the yoke is cut to fig snugly on the shoulders (and if the back has no pleats, which I usually require), the two-piece yoke actually extends with the movement of the shoulder blades (when driving, for instance) because the material gives in more when cut on a bias. This however requires that the yoke be deep enough (10-12 cm) so that the line of stitching between back and yoke falls below the level where the shoulder blades are most prominent. If I take the word of my shirtmaker, however, this traditional design is more difficult to sew, requiring special attention where yoke, back and sleeve meet (because each piece is cut on a different direction and pulls differently). If a garment of such construction is made by an inexperienced shirtmaker, not only does it look terrible but it is also impossible to press properly.

The cut of the French cuffs is also somewhat particular, because the outer (visible) half is cut away following a particular pattern as seen in the picture, leaving the inner half of the folded cuff and the line of stitching between sleeve and cuff visible (if one should take one’s coat off, that is). I asked the shirtmaker to replace the traditional pleats at the sleeve-cuff line of stitching with small creases (or ripples) - which in my eyes goes quite well with the design of the cloth; besides, historically speaking creases are really the ancestor of pleats in men’s shirts, arent’t they? It is probably not visible in the picture, but the buttonholes are all beautifully hand-sewn and the off-white mother-of-pearl buttons manually attached with needle and thread in a cross-stitch and with a small shank.

I’m wearing a pair of light grey fresco trousers with a fly front, slanted pockets and one pleat. I prefer a fly front for the very practical reason that, unlike the stiff zippers, fly fronts do not swell when seated. No turnups and the bottom of the trouser legs is cut on a mild slant to keep the break of the trouser minimal in front, while extending right to the point where the shoe heel starts in the back. Plain black oxfords (never too elegant in my opinion) and a black belt with a matte brass buckle (no shiny chromed buckles for me).

To brighten up the monotony of dark blue and grey, I chose a pinkish silk tie with a small intricate geometrical weave and small dark blue squares, recalling the colour of the coat.

It has a thicker wool lining, which allows for the wider knot needed to fill the space between the points of the cutaway collar. “Pratt” is the name of this tie knot style and I use it when I need a wide knot that does not eat up too much of the tie’s length. The colour of the tie is recalled by the oval pink dots of the dark blue jacquard silk pochette.

Finally, a picture of my dark blue velvet-collared Chesterfield - but that’s another story (made by the tailor that I presently work with - admittedly better than the author of the blazer) and it is worth treating separately and extensively another time (when I hope to make better pictures, too).

Interestingly, everything you see in these pictures (blazer, shirt, trousers, coat - even my boxers, thought I was too shy to photograph them) are bespoke items made by Romanian artisans. Very little is left of the Romanian tradition in this field (and it used to be quite flourishing between the two World Wars) and the little that was preserved during the comunist regime has declined even further during the last 16 years since the fall of comunism. Many abandoned the trade, because they could not make a living. The few artisans that survived, however - both physically and professionally speaking - are true masters and, if one asks the very best of them, they are perfectly able to deliver it.
Forced to keep with the times and the modern technologies by ignorant and indiscriminating clients, they tend to take many shortcuts and borrow industrial methods if the client doesn’t know what to ask for. They are also underpaid and so their interest is severly undermined by this condition. They have no apprentices because nobody wants to be a tailor these days in Romania. The trade is slowly dying away and, if nothing stops the process, in less than a decade tailors will be history in this country.
When I first explained to my tailor what I wanted in a coat (much of which obviously involves a serious amount of handwork), he smiled at me (not without pleasure) and told me that I was carrying him 35 years back in time Nevertheless, he happily made everything to the most exacting standards, even surpassing my requirements in some respects. It’s true that I add some extra for the time and effort to his modest rates, but I think this is not the only reason for his performance. I realize quite clearly that working with an informed client, who knows what he wants and asks for it or, when a suggestion is made, is able to discerningly follow it - brings to light his professional pride and the satisfaction of seeing his work appreciated.

I am seriously thinking of setting up a decorous structure to give some of these talented craftsmen an opportunity to profess, make a decent living and be able to pass on their knowledge to younger apprentices. Also, it would educate the public, over time, on the value and comfort of bespoke clothing. If anyone has ideas that could be useful in this direction, I would be very happy to find out about them.

So long,

Costi

Welcome, Costi:

It is a pleasure to have you here and I, for one, look forward to your participation. You should know that your photos did not embed in your post as intended, but I did look at them. I very much like the cut of your blazer and I am not sure the lapels should be wider. One thing worth noting is how the pockets line up with the bottom buttons AND how much the coat extends below the bottom buttons. That is unusual, and looks like the entire button stance was pulled up. I suspect that is not an accident and there is some careful thought being given to proportions. Perhaps you can explain what was intended.

I like the shirt and tie, although I prefer my shirts cut closer in general and particularly at the shoulders (this is not a criticism of yours). Your cuff design is interesting, although I don’t see anything unusual in the way the pleats or folds are made - perhaps that is just the resolution of the photo. Another comment is that the angling of the yoke
is clearly at a 45 degree angle. This is steeper than what I am used to seeing, but I understand the functional argument of a full bias cut. My own shirts are cut with a split yoke but not chevronned. If they were chevronned, I think I would prefer a shallower angle that followed the shoulder line unless I were convinced that the functional difference was real and perceptible rather than theoretical. I would love to hear from Kabbaz or other shirtmakers on this.


I am especially eager to hear what you mean when you said you wanted to help them set up some sort of teaching structure. Perhaps you might start with a short interview that you could post here. Maybe, after you collect enough comments on this thread, you can present them to your tailors and have them discuss their ideas in response.

Also, what did you do for fabrics and trimmings. Did you supply your own or does your tailor have access to whatever you need?

I look forward to some better resolution photos. You have certainly made me curious.

Welcome, Costi. I hope and think that you'll find the Lounge a pleasant place.

As Dopey, I hope that you'll be able to post sharper photographs in future. Based on what I do see, I must say that your blazer, in particular, appears to be a fine garment. Would you be so kind as to tell us the name and address of the tailor? (We Loungers already have some awareness of the workmanship available in Bucharest, thanks to the posts of David Bresch, an American married to a native of Roumania.)

Because of my dislike of roped shoulders and ticket pockets, I prefer the look of your blazer to that of the Chesterfield; but it, too, appears to fit you well. You are fortunate indeed to have found such skilled tailors.

Your shirt, too, seems very well made, though the fullness of the sleeve at the wrist is greater than generally seen in the West; and I prefer the customary cut of double cuffs. The collar and proportions are very nice. Could you post a photograph of the split yoke?

Finally, your sense of color and balance are excellent (at least, they accord with my own!). I especially like your cravat and pocket square -- a delightful pairing.

We all look forward to your future postings and full participation in the life of our "club".

Dear Costi,

Welcome to the London Lounge.

Both the blazer and the suit look fine, but I must agree with you that the Chestefield seems rather good. I know it is a matter of taste, but I love the waisted shape and the slightly sloping but neat shoulders. The lapels are wonderfully balanced. Very much in the English taste.

I can identify with many of your comments about Bukarest tailoring.

When I was fifteen, my late grandfather introduced me to his tailor in Prague. It was just after the fall of communism (a visit before then would not have been advisable, I must admit), and the economy was in complete disarray. This tailor was in his late eighties then. I brought a few lengths of English and Italian cloth, and while they were nothing special (at least not from what I know now), his eyes lighted up. He had not seen some of these for years, and he did his best. Those jackets and suits lasted me well into my first job. Neither of us ever looked back, and over the next decade he did some fabulous stuff, both of us upping our game at every turn (in terms of cloth and workmanship, his cut was always one of the best I have encountered). He must have been considered a scourge by the idle and complacent tailors (he was a cutter, not a tailor, a considerable difference) as he demanded handwork that had not been practised for years. My bespoke education started with him, and he taught me a lot. I was his last customer.

After he finally retired, his boss (a younger and more ambitious cutter who had set up his own business after the state owned tailoring firm broke apart) decided to shut the bespoke operation to concentrate on RTW. He thought it was more profitable. I went to Henry Poole in Savile Row, he nearly went bust.

We met by chance a few years later, and he was back in business. His skills as a cutter and the small tailoring shop I knew were all that was left from his high flying expansion plans (well, he also kept the debts, but that is another story). I came back to have a suit made, really more for old times sake than anything else, and I staid as a customer. His cut is more continental than Savile Row, but it does have panache. One of his biggest problems are the tailors. They like to use modern shortcuts, and it is difficult to force them to do things the right way. As a customer, one always needs to be vigilant with them. But there is hope.

When I saw him over christmas, he sighed how busy he was, and that his customers were getting more and more demanding. Well, I joyfully retorted that this was great news: a demanding customer could never go back to RTW!

I think that bespoke will retain a role in Eastern Europe, but it will become similar to the Western world. As economies reform and growth begins, and admittedly the Czech Republic may be further down this route, hourly labour rates will rise. Those suits that Dr Bresch loves to pay $163 for, will become a thing of the past. In order to attract staff, wages will rise, and so will prices. But this is good. A bespoke suit must be (relatively) expensive, otherwise the tailor is being unduly exploited (or the quality is inferior, or both).

I applaud you for your efforts in Bukarest. It is customers who are demanding but fair, who help their tailors to gain access to better fabrics, who request the best workmanship, but also repay the tailor's efforts, both financially but also with praise and encouragement, that are required for bespoke tailoring to thrive.

Good luck.

Thomas Drastik

Firstly I would like to thank you, distinguished gentlemen, for your warm welcome. I also appreciate the frankness with which you responded to my plea for your crytical opinions.

Dear Dopey - apparently by now my (poor) pictures do appear to have (miraculously?) embedded in the text. The button stance of my blazer does, indeed, have an intended pecualirity: it is elongated. More precisely, the four bottom buttons do not make up a square, but rather a rectangle with the vertical side slightly longer than the horizontal. Furthermore, the distance between the middle and the top set of buttons is even greater than the distance between the bottom and the middle set of buttons. Also, the top two buttons are closer to each other than usually. As for the alingment of the bottom buttons with the jettings of the pockets - I think it is more of a rule than an exception, isn't it? If we browse our Photojournal (marvelous thing!) we see plenty of examples. This whole design was meant to narrow and elongate the figure. The length of the coat is what I usually wear - the thumb knuckle rule works well for me; the pockets, instead, are somewhat high, but their placement was correlated with the desired positions of the working buttons (with the middle one as high within the range of my natural waist as possible). To me it looks balanced, but maybe and expert's eye could reveal something different.
As far as the design of my shirt's split yoke is concerned - yes, indeed, it could be angled to match natural slope of the shoulders, but then the functional argument of the bias cut would be out of question and the only purpose for the split yoke would be its pretty look. What did you mean that your yokes were split but not chevronned? Are they cut in the middle and then re-sewn along the same line, with the fabric cut straight? Please enlighten me.
The "STRUCTURE" I am thinking of setting up would be mainly a "production" unit and secondly a teaching one (since apprentices would be needed). I am thinking of opening up an "atelier" of mens' bespoke clothing, with the help and collaboration of the craftsmen I currently work with. I do have some ideas (maybe start with a shirtmaking shop and then move on to other types of garments) but I rather lack the practical experience of such a business. As I was writing before, this would give the craftsmen the opportunity to make a decent living (Dr. Bresch's 160 USD/suit is more or less actual) as well as to pass their knowledge on to younger apprentices (which they don't have now).
Fabrics and trimmings are a crucial factor in this equation - because, as you assumed, it is impossible to find anything of good quality in Bucharest. I bring them mainly from Italy (where I travel a lot), sometimes down to the last button, canvas and even the silk thread needed to finish the buttonholes. My main contribution (besides management and capital) to this workshop that I might establish would be supplying it with quality cloth and trimmings.

Dear RWS - the name of the cutter who made my blazer is Ion Burcea and his workshop is in Piata Amzei (Bucharest), right across the street from a beautiful well-known church bearing the same name. He must be in his early seventies (well-experienced). I find he is an excellent cutter - however, some of the tailors that actually sew and trim the garments do a deplorable work. Unfortunately, the tailors don't do their work on the premises and he cannot supervise them. The first coat he made for me was pretty good, then I commissioned a suit and was very much disappointed. He sent it back to be fixed, but many things were irreparable (such as clumsily sewn buttonholes, awkward-looking shoulder lines etc). I continued working with him through a few more coats and suits (the blazer among them) and for every good garment he made for me, there was another one that I was not content with. So, with regret for his good cutting skills, I gave up his services and found another craftsman with whom I am quite happy.
The Chesterfield is this latter cutter's work and I must disappoint you with my taste for roped shoulders, but really most of my coats (with few exceptions) do exhibit this feature. However, I promise to give unroped shoulders a try with my next projected garment (a DB suit in a tan cloth that I have been storing in my closet for the past 6 months). I hope my tailor is comfortable with the "spalla napoletana" - we haven't tried it yet.
On the Chesterfield the roped shoulders appear very obvious also because the cloth is thick and heavy and the tailor probably had to insert more material than in a coat to get that effect. The presence of the ticket pocket is debatable, of course - it was a matter of choice (I find its smaller size suitable for keeping change, actually).
The fullness of the shirt sleeve at the wrist which you accurately noticed is due to the fact that I'd rather the shirt cuff didn't ride up my coat sleeve when I bend my elbow, than have a neat-looking sleeve with my coat off. Most of my shirts (with the exception of certain sports models, meant to be worn also without a coat) have slightly longer sleeves and relatively tight cuffs which secure their proper positon on my wrist. Besides, I cannot honestly say I dislike these puffed sleeves - to my eye, it gives the shirt more of an intimate look, like an authentic piece of "lingerie" that is only meant for the eye of the owner or of an intimate company.
As for the split yoke - I thought I had posted the picture (but discovered I hadn't); here it is (I got rid of those unsightly backneck hairs today):

Finally, I am happy to have found common ground on the matter of colour and pattern matching: at least I score high with you on an issue that is entirely up to my own skills (Just kidding - really thank you for your insightful and practiced observations)

Do the esteemed club members believe that well-off Romanians who eagerly spend 800-1500 EUR on a "signed" Armani, Boss or Zegna off-the-peg suit, could be persuaded with reasonable effort that, for that much or even less money, a bespoke suit skilfully handcrafted from high quality materials is by far a better and longer-lasting investment?

If the answer to that question is "yes", then, my dear Thomas Drastik (please pardon my familiarity, but we appear to be of a similar age if we add the 16 years since the fall of comunism to the 15 years you had when you first visited Prague) - if the answer is "yes", I was asserting, I might as well start the business tomorrow. I relate perfectly to the situation of the early nineties in Prague that you evoked. I, too, am fighting - along with my cutter - against the bad "industrializing" habbits of most tailors, who would take any shortcut that would spare them any amount of handwork. The main problem is the cooperative type of organization (a comunist reminiscence) - because cutters should have authority over tailors who, in turn, should be compelled to follow the cutters' instructions. Otherwise, if they are all equal co-op members, it all ends up into chaos. I can say that, besides managing the design of my garments (together with my cutter), I also have to manage the team that makes them. With time, I have gained the friendship / respect / interest (as the case may be) of the selected few to whom my cutter entrusts his work. Sustained moral and financial incentives are the means that secure the success of my every sartorial enterprise. I realize these people are drastically (no pun intended) underpaid for what is required of them (by clients like myself), which is why I have no objection to paying extra - but the real issue is that not everyone has the patience to build individual relationships with cutters, trouser-makers, coat-makers, trimmers etc. to ensure the successful outcome of one's commission.
I realize that a client without my perseverance and dedication would readily walk out on such a "house style", go across the street and buy the off-the-peg Armani suit. It is why I am thinking of setting up an independent workshop, with a few of the best craftsmen (that I already have in view), where a proper organizational structure and management would ensure the fertile implementation of their skills. As you well noted, labour costs and prices would have to go up, but then it is the only way to save this trade.
I think one of your remarks could well constitute the keystone of the "sartorial edifice" that I envision:

a demanding customer could never go back to RTW!

.
It is obviously not in great numbers, but in the fidelity of the relatively few customers that bespoke tailoring's sustainability resides. With that in mind, I will end with a pertinent Romanian saying which assumes to explain why bears have short ears and tails: first you break their ears pulling them into the beahive, then you break their tail to pull them away from the honey.

Dear Costi:

Let me see if I can explain my original comment on your blazer a bit better. I have certainly been aided by your subsequent explanation so I am sure that we are now communicating about the same thing. My initial sense is that I was seeing the entire six button assembly higher than expected, and that it was obviously intentional (which is why I noted the precise alignment of the lower pockets). As you mentioned, you did this by placing the middle buttons as high on the waist as you could. That, is, of course, the critical decision from which all else followed. To me, the result is that the coat looks skewed and out-of-balance. In particular, it looks too long (which it is not - as is clear from the side view). Another way to explain what I am seeing is to note that if I focus on the buttons, which is natural given their contrast with the coat), my eye expects the coat bottom to be just a bit below where your sleeves are. I think this coat would look better if the center buttons were dropped to the middle of the waist shown, with the bottom buttons dropped a similar amount and the top buttons a bit more (or not - this last bit is very minor).



This frequently cited LL example is among my favorite DB coats. One thing to notice is that the distance from the top button to the top of the coat is about the same as the distance from the middle button to the bottom of the coat and a little longer than the distance from the bottom button to the bottom of the coat. On your coat, everything is pulled higher.



I happen to prefer the 6x2 DB cut you posted, but conventional wisdom has always been that a 6x1 or 4x1 is the way to go for a slimming elongating DB. I have yet to try, though. It certainly seems to have done well with the Duke of Windsor. Have you tried it? I mentioned it the tailor I have begun using in NY, and he seemed less than enthused at the prospect except for a dinner jacket. When I insisted that it might be worth a try, he started pinning a DB coat from my UK tailor to show me how he would consider doing a hybrid 6x1.5 where the coat fastens at the bottom but the lapel rolls higher. This made no sense to me whatsoever, but is a line I am likely to pursue if and when the cloth club triple-windowpane flannel comes in.

One final point on this - you correctly noted that coat pockets often line up with lower buttons. I think that is a fine objective, but it almost never works for me. That is just the way the proportions seem to be for me and I don’t worry much about it. And in your case, if no other changes were made to your blazer, I think pulling the pockets down would still make for an improvement to the perceived balance. The one exception I intend to make to my aforesaid lack of concern is with besom pockets. If I get a coat made that way (again, the cloth club flannel is what I am thinking of), I will work fairly hard to see if they can be made to line up with the bottom buttons and still work right.

As for my comments about the shirt yoke, you understood exactly what I was saying about how my shirt yokes are cut and your surprise is understandable. I cannot pretend to know if there is any sense to why they are done that way and I will have to ask next time. Interestingly, my prior shirt-maker did the same thing (the current is British, the former was US). What you describe makes perfect sense, although I continue to question whether there is a discernible advantage as opposed to a theoretical advantage to the yoke being cut on the bias. On aesthetic grounds, I prefer no or a shallow angle.

I hope you take these and my prior comments in the spirit in which they were intended. I share your interest in how things are and should be made and enjoy learning more from discussing actual examples. I really mean for all of my comments to be taken purely in the context of a discussion among friends, real and “virtual” and have posted what I did with some concern that they may be taken otherwise.

I will also take this opportunity to thank you for posting the 60s and Esquire/AA illustrations.

Costi wrote:. . . . The "STRUCTURE" I am thinking of setting up would be mainly a "production" unit and secondly a teaching one (since apprentices would be needed). I am thinking of opening up an "atelier" of mens' bespoke clothing, with the help and collaboration of the craftsmen I currently work with. I do have some ideas (maybe start with a shirtmaking shop and then move on to other types of garments) but I rather lack the practical experience of such a business. As I was writing before, this would give the craftsmen the opportunity to make a decent living (Dr. Bresch's 160 USD/suit is more or less actual) as well as to pass their knowledge on to younger apprentices (which they don't have now).
Fabrics and trimmings are a crucial factor in this equation - because, as you assumed, it is impossible to find anything of good quality in Bucharest. I bring them mainly from Italy (where I travel a lot), sometimes down to the last button, canvas and even the silk thread needed to finish the buttonholes. My main contribution (besides management and capital) to this workshop that I might establish would be supplying it with quality cloth and trimmings. . . .

Should you succeed in establishing a complex of tailors' and shirtmakers' shops (any shoemakers?) that could deliver excellent workmanship in good materials, all at a price that is low by Western standards, Costi, you'd doubtless find many Loungers willing to travel to Roumania both to be outfitted and to sightsee. I know that I'd be among them.

Thanks, again, for your informative and engaging postings. Please do continue, and accept my best wishes for a safe and happy new year.