The London Lounge

Does anyone have know who makes Prince Charles waistcoats for morning dress, eg the one he wore at his last wedding?

I fear that I have not been able to find out any real evidence about who did his morning dress for his wedding, despite asking a few people I know on the Row. All the stuff about "he used to go to A&S" or "he is currently with Gieves" I found to be less than directly from the horses mouth or out of date.

However, if you wish to have a proper morning dress and DB waistcoat made, make sure the cutter and tailor assigned to this job are those specialising in this rather archaic garnment. It is a specialism, and a good SR house will as a matter of course allocate its specialist workers to the task.

There are a number of different cuts for DB waistcoats (one or two piece fronts, shawl or peak lapels). Most people nowadays order a backless one, which I feel is prone to ill-fit. On the front, the cut of the lapels makes or breaks the look. Also, there are a few hidden buttons that are essential for fit and comfort. Finally, it must be worn with braces and fish-back trousers, because the overlap at the front is much smaller than with a SB cut that is more foregiving. The balance between waistcoat, trousers and coat is fundamental for an elegant appearance.

Far too often an ill matched coat and trousers are "improved" with an ill fitting waistcoat made of some luxury silk or casmere in the hope that it will put things right. All it does is draw attention to the faults. Much better to chose a plain fabric and invest in the best cut and workmanship.

Thanks TVD. 1. What are fish back trousers? 2 Who would you recommend to make one of these? 3. what is the separte pale coloured inner 'lining' these types of waistcoat seem to have?

1. Trousers cut with no waistband in the back and somewhat longer there. The middle seam linking the two trouser legs in the back ends a few inches below the top, so that a triangular gap is formed. The buttons for your braces are placed near the tips of the two ends. It somehow resembles a fish-tail. These trousers must be worn with braces unless you wish to risk a trial for indecent exposure.

2. Any good London tailor will do them. Elsewhere, they may not be as common, but even then some tailors will have enough (oldfahioned clients, and thus) expertise to get them right. The issue is that they must be cut so as to provide enough space when your braces pull them up a bit when sitting down. Just ask how often your tailor makes them.

3. A rather archaic and uncommon thing, somebody once called it a "slip", but not sure that is the correct expression. Don't think I ever saw it worn by anybody in the UK, other than the Prince of Wales at his wedding. Morning dress is warm enough as is, and most weddings / social season events take place in the summer. I am sure another LL member could be more specific about the cut. Is it just a a shawl like strip of fabric, or is it a full second waistcoat worn underneath? Etutee included an example in his third Esky / AA post.

So do you think that my usual morning trousers will not go with a DB waistcoat? They are highish (above my belly button)!

amphius wrote:Does anyone have know who makes Prince Charles waistcoats for morning dress, eg the one he wore at his last wedding?

The suit has all the fingerprints of A&S, and the guys at A&S were very happy to tell me how proud they were of his appearance last spring. Which is not a direct confirmation, but suggestive.

A slip is like a narrow white scarf that is worn under the waistcoat so that it is visible just so.

It was adopted from the fashions of the English Regency, I believe, when wearing numerous layered vests was rather modish.

Would a slip make the waistcoat too warm for an English summer? I sweltered at Ascot this year and would like to stay cool.....

Most fish-back trousers unless cut very low should accomodate a double breasted waistcoat. If your trousers are worn just with side adjusters, it may be tricky but possible. I hope your morning suit trousers are not of the belt variety, but if so, I would strongly discourage a DB waistoat. SB hides the problem more easily.

amphius wrote:Would a slip make the waistcoat too warm for an English summer? I sweltered at Ascot this year and would like to stay cool.....

It's a rather negligible piece of fabric so it shouldn't cause much trouble to wear it in warmer contexts.

amphius wrote:Thanks TVD. 1. What are fish back trousers? 2 Who would you recommend to make one of these? 3. what is the separte pale coloured inner 'lining' these types of waistcoat seem to have?

This thread features an incidental discussion on slips:

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... c&start=30

(It also contains a link to a webpage showing some photographs of a slipped waistcoat.)

Re. HRH's slips, rather sadly I wrote to Sir Michael Peat (the Prince's Private Secretary)some little while ago asking whether he might know a tailor who could advise on the construction of a d/b waisctoat with slips. In a brief but courteous letter, he disclaimed any expertise in the matter but suggested that the best people to whom to speak might be Gieves and Hawkes.

Re. HRH's slips, rather sadly I wrote to Sir Michael Peat (the Prince's Private Secretary)some little while ago asking whether he might know a tailor who could advise on the construction of a d/b waisctoat with slips. In a brief but courteous letter, he disclaimed any expertise in the matter but suggested that the best people to whom to speak might be Gieves and Hawkes.[/quote]


I doubt he actually knows, but was just pointing you in the direction of the tailor to whom he goes!

If you look very carefully at the pictures of the wedding, you will see that the Prince of Wales's morning dress appears considerably more elegant than those worn by his sons. Those in fact reportedly came from Gieves. As for his tailor, please note Concordia's comment above.

TVD wrote:.

3. A rather archaic and uncommon thing, somebody once called it a "slip", but not sure that is the correct expression. Don't think I ever saw it worn by anybody in the UK, other than the Prince of Wales at his wedding.

Inter alia, I saw the Lord Lieutenant of Durham wearing a slipped waistcoat for the annual service of Founders and Benefactors of the Cathedral and Diocese of Durham in Durham Cathedral in November last year. Can't remember if I was wearing mine as well.

A.

Budd now has some waistcoat slips available ready-made and online:

https://www.buddshirts.co.uk/plain-line ... white.html
https://www.buddshirts.co.uk/plain-marc ... white.html