The London Lounge

Greetings all:
Last night I was watching the movie Notorious with Cary Grant and noticed somthing that Mr. Grant had on. Near the end of the movie when he went to save his girl, Mr. Grant had on a white soft button down callor shirt with cuff links on. I wonder if it was custom made or if some RTW shirts were made like that back in the 1940s? I was even using a magnfying glass to double check. Button down collars are more for causal shirts but if you like to dress it up a little I guess thats ok. I might have to check on some more Cary Grant movies to see if he has done the same thing in other pictures.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

This is shocking to me. I know I am the designated rule guy, and am expected to be strict and harsh in my slavish isistence on propriety. So I suppose my revulsion must be taken with a grain of salt. But that is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Ot at least ugly, ugly, ugly.

What's more, I have seen that film several times and don't remember that at all. How could I have missed it?

I do agree with you Manton. I have seen the film before and missed it as well, but this time it caught my eye. Like I said earlier I used a Magnifying Glass to doulbe check and sad but true my fashion hero Cary Grant is indeed wearing a buttondown collar with cuff links. The only other time I saw this was when a mistake was made for a customer from Robert Talbott (It was fixed of course).

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

It is one of those aspects of personal style.

Most people wouldn't wear a tie outside a sweater.

I have not seen the film. However, I can imagine that a rather tightly cut but deep, square double cuff with an extremely soft unfused interlining may be just about sufficiently informal to pull it off. The cuff link has to be very "close-coupled" and be placed in the centre (rather than towards the front edge).

You see, the edge of a soft double cuff is more comfortable than any buttoned cuff. And you must make it "visible", it must bend and crease and follow the shape of the wrist.

Althouogh I do not agree, I do have two customers that order all shirts buttondown and french cuff. They prefer the buttondowncollar but want a dressier look for sportcoats and suits.

Is my memory off? Didn't Dean Martin wear a button down collar with turn back cuffs with his tuxedos? this topic just brought that to mind.

I know Borelli make ready to wear shirts with button-down collars (long, pointed ones that I really like), and casino cuffs. This being, of course, much more informal than French cuffs. They're all in fairly bold stripes, and plainly casual, though I'm sure one with pale blue stripes would look good with a tie and jacket.

I went to buy a couple earlier this year, but our retailer of Borrelli had none in my size (and the sizes approaching mine were ridiculously generous in their cut). I may try my luck at the Borrelli outpost in Melbourne.

Best,

Eden

The famous publicity shot for The Philadelphia Story has both Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart wearing double-breasted suits with button-down collar shirts, looking back at Katherine Hepburn. Fred Astaire also was known to wear button-down shirts with double-breasted suits: see, for example, the picture in Bruce Boyer's Astaire book. I suppose the lesson is that when you wear your clothes as well as Grant and Astaire did, you look good even when breaking one of the cardinal rules of style.

jcusey wrote:The famous publicity shot for The Philadelphia Story has both Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart wearing double-breasted suits with button-down collar shirts, looking back at Katherine Hepburn. Fred Astaire also was known to wear button-down shirts with double-breasted suits: see, for example, the picture in Bruce Boyer's Astaire book. I suppose the lesson is that when you wear your clothes as well as Grant and Astaire did, you look good even when breaking one of the cardinal rules of style.

Cusey, pay attention! I suppose that if a thread is not about shoes, you don't read it carefully?

The particular rule violation we were discussing here is matching french (double) cuffs with a button down collar. That is a much graver sin than pairing a buttondown shirt with a DB coat.

Although I also, as Romualdo, do not prefer the style combination, I as well have three clients who wear cufflinks with their button-down collars.

The particular rule violation we were discussing here is matching french (double) cuffs with a button down collar. That is a much graver sin than pairing a buttondown shirt with a DB coat.

Sin? Sin? Notwithstanding that I do not personally prefer the style, from whence cometh said 'rule'? As most of the rules posited - nay, "recorded", he will say - by Manton are historically derived, was there not a time in history when all shirt cuffs were closed by fastening devices other than buttons? To recall even one step further, weren't all cuffs at one time detachable and requiring devices for attachment to the shirt itself as well as to be closed? And if my historical recollection is accurate, did not the concept of buttoning down the collar originally serve to keep polo players from having that annoying flapping in their faces? Thus, the concept having derived from a shirt without cuffs ... again I question, from whence the "rule"?

As I said, I question this not because I like nor wish to be a proponent of the style, but merely to offer sufficient discourse that our historic record be mutually agreed to be correct. After all, with the internet generally replacing the book as the favored reference tool, will not future generations seek their guidance on such matters here?

AlexanderKabbaz wrote:was there not a time in history when all shirt cuffs were closed by fastening devices other than buttons?

Yes.

To recall even one step further, weren't all cuffs at one time detachable and requiring devices for attachment to the shirt itself as well as to be closed?

No, there were linen shirts with attached cuffs before the stiff, separate cuff came into being.

And if my historical recollection is accurate, did not the concept of buttoning down the collar originally serve to keep polo players from having that annoying flapping in their faces?

Yes.

Thus, the concept having derived from a shirt without cuffs ... again I question, from whence the "rule"?

No, the original polo shirts had soft, attached cuffs. I can't say with certainty that all of them buttoned, but from what I have seen all or most did.

Even if some or most were attached by links, that would not constitute proof that the rule is wrong. Clothing evolves. The historical origins of a style or garment do not necessarily determine the proper use of that style or garment forever. For instance, one used to see four-button single-breasted ghillie collared lounge suit coats. In the lounge suit's infancy, those were common, while the style of coat we know today was unknown. Yet I think few of us today would dispute that four buttons on an SB coat is "incorrect" and that the ghillie collar has passed on to costume Valhalla.

The buttondown collar was taken from genuine sport (i.e., physical activity) and adapted for use in "sports clothes" broadly understood (that is, casual, non-business clothes). It was originally meant as an accompaniment to nubbier, less formal suitings and jacketings. It was, and was meant to be, the least formal of all collars worn with a tie. Thus from the first days it left the polo field and entered the broad style canon, it has not had French cuffs. The aesthetic principle is that a supremely informal detail ought not juxtaposed with a supremely formal detail within the same garment.

For the reasons Manton gives, I have my buttondown collar shirts made with ribbed knit cuffs.



OK. I made that up.

OK. I made that up.

Too bad. I was just checking my ribbed knit cuff inventory in anticipation of an order.

manton wrote:This is shocking to me. I know I am the designated rule guy, and am expected to be strict and harsh in my slavish isistence on propriety. So I suppose my revulsion must be taken with a grain of salt. But that is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Ot at least ugly, ugly, ugly.

What's more, I have seen that film several times and don't remember that at all. How could I have missed it?

I loathe the style, and I agree with Manton, it simply looks wrong. But be advised one and all that Alan Flusser sold button-down shirts with French cuffs at his old shop in pre-Saks days, back in the go-go '80s. This odd combination has been around for bloody decades, and Fred Astaire, one of the very best dressers, did on occasion pair a collar pin with a button-down collar, as many of you fine fellows know--and God Almighty, if that doesn't alternately suck and blow, then suspender/braces should indeed be worn in combination with belts at all times!