The London Lounge

Okay, I took the plunge and drove to NYC just to shop the top stores, because I had a light day and I go to Trenton every day. I have had bad driving experiences going to NYC and I wanted to try the GW. It was a success.

Now, brief reports on what I saw. Obviously this is a personal and eccentric view, and PLEASE do not shoot the messenger:

1) Lobb: I found amusing to see a woman who spoke Spanish, obviously South American, count out "600, 700, 800..." in cash to the salesman. And I am sure he was amused too. For some reason I was not inspired by the shoes, but this could be a function of my not looking too closely and also my knowing most of the standard Northampton models that the manufacturers offer, from my Internet activities and purchases. I did not notice the more distinctive models that caught my fancy in the Photojournal of this site.

2) Barney's: The Battistoni section is so small. I really need those mannequins to inspire me. Besides I am really not into RTW anymore. I asked for Merola gloves, since when they were mentioned here I called the company and they said Barney's carried their products and they no longer sell directly to the public. Blank stares.

3) Venanzi: A beautiful space and a gracious salesman, perhaps the owner or director? A very narrow and boring selection of EG's, for the same reason as Lobb, I think I am immune to the standard models now. I wonder about the English bespoke thing, it is a nice addition to the NYC scene (not for me, but if I lived in NYC).

4) Stephen Kempton: I stopped in by chance on my way to J Kos. Kempton is a nice fellow, if a bit solicitous. He wanted to order Cleverly models for me because he had so few in stock, but I admitted I might not be worth it and he said "Only you can know." Well, I am an impulse purchaser in retail off the Net, so unless I see it, I won't buy. The shoes were fine but again, I was not inspired. Okay, here is the big news. He claims Cleverly RTW are made by Crockett. His Italian-made bespoke was very attractive with over-the-top handwork.

5) J Kos: Kos himself was there and this guy is wound TIGHT. He went on and on about how he hated Ask Andy participants (too obsessed with unimportant details) and American consumers (obsessed with brands). He freaked out when I asked about his selling Castangia and denied everything. He said something about his customers' "just trusting him" and he saw no reason for people's looking deeper, though he said they should recognize the evident quality of his goods. He was wearing an Irish linen suit from Drapers by the way, a little lighter-weight and darker than my own. I prefered his color to mine, though perhaps his shop's light was flattering. I think I would be afraid to purchase clothing from him (that I might say something that would enrage him). But oddly enough, I saw nothing unusual about the prices. In fact, he has some good deals on Weston loafers.

6) Bergdorfs: Disappointing. There are no RTW Castangia models to see. Blank stares on Merola gloves (another store Merola said sells their goods). The Charvet shop was nice, with a beautiful blazer displayed (I wonder who made it), the fabric was nice and it had lots of handwork, price quite high.

7) Turbull: very gracious staff. I saw the CJ Handgrades. I have seen them on the web and there were no surprises.

Oxxford: store was closed so I had to skip it. Same for Hertzfelds.

I have one question and one thought. I was looking for knit ties and I wondered, does any particular person make a better knit tie? I saw them at Charvet, T and A, and Kos and they were all similar, they all said that only a few people make them for all the labels.

My thought is this: there is no shortage of beautiful bespoke tailors to be had in NYC. I think the competition for bespoke dollars is ferocious in NYC and that is why the vendors I met seemed high-strung.

Well that was "David's most excellent NYC adventure."

Dr. B,

When did you arrive at Oxxford and Herzfeld? I think that both stores close at 6:00 pm on the dot.

If you make it to Oxxford on your next trip mention both the Lounge and me. We had an event at the store in June. The store will be moving to E. 56th St., bet. Fifth and Madison, next spring.

Venanzi is a brand new store with Robert Gillotte as the manager. They opened last Saturday. They are still working out the details, such as the bespoke services. Did Rob Gillotte help you? He's tall and thin and about 50. He's a lovely person, and he attended our first meeting.

I'm glad that you had a good trip.

Some, not all, of Cleverly's RTW shoes are made by C&J. That is no secret.

How much is Kos charging for the Weston loafers. I assume they are the Weston 180s (their signature loafer). Correct?

Next time also check out Berluti up Madison, Santoni, and anothe small shoe shop on the way whose name I always forget. If anything they are interesting to look at. Santoni had a weird shoe with a solid wedge heel with leather wrapped around it.

I used to use Lobb Paris but now use Cleverley for the better fit. They're also much cheaper! For those who may be interested they are in town until the 8th.

I am surprised Oxxford is moving to 56, they have a prime location on 57th but I guess the rent is getting to them.

Thanks for that NYC report!

But your schedule is too fatiguing and sets you up for disappointment.

I used to rush to see everything; by mid day I was exhausted and nothing looked appealing and I just wanted to get home and relax.

I didn't take my time, or have the time, to savor shopping for, or mulling over a few select items.

I would bet that undertaking a bespoke commission with one of LL's NYC based tailor artisans would be a much more satisfying experience; a leisurely trip to NYC once every month or two to get fitted, pick out a few select accessories for your bespoke suit, have a drink or a meal in between, would suit you much better!

Don't forget my question about the best knitted tie.

When the origin of Cleverly's shoes was discussed on AAAC I think there was bloodshed.

I do not know whether the loafers at Kos were their "signature loafer" because I did not know they had one. I know of the "chasse" model, but that is it.

Dr. Bresch, my experience with Kos was similar. I found him to be rather an ass; were he the first person I met in the shop, I would have departed post-haste. The gentleman I first met was an older man (whose name I don't remember) who was actually very pleasant. Glad I didn't mention to Kos anything about internet MBs related to menswear!

At the time I visited - nearly 2 years ago - I found some of his prices absurd, some less so. When Flusser's charging $195 per tie, perhaps that puts things in perspective a bit. I thought Kos had a charming selection of haberdashery, but I wouldn't buy a suit there anytime soon. His MTM prices are almost as high as bespoke!

And what an absurd comment about his customers "just trusting him." I think most of us want to know the quality of expensive goods before we part with our money, particularly if we don't know the seller personally. In one of the Peter Wimsey novels, Wimsey comments re: a particular hat that labels mean nothing ("the quality guarantees the brand, not vice versa").

I believe SIlvano Lattanzi also has a shop in New York.

brescd01 wrote:When the origin of Cleverly's shoes was discussed on AAAC I think there was bloodshed.

I remember that thread but, once again, I have no recollection of any bloodshed or even a heated argument. I do remember that no one could be sure who Cleverley uses for RTW, because Cleverley (unlike a lot of private lable retailers) is pretty good at keeping a secret.

All I know is that when I stopped by Cleverlys last January, I asked one of guys there whether the RTW shoes were made by C&J, the guy told me that some were, some were not. It did not seem as if I hit on a nerve. But who cares who makes the RTW shoes; they were of good enough quality for the price. Not as nice as say EG (for the most part), but not as expensive either.

Cleverley RTW are 300 pounds according to their representative in NY

Are the Cleverley shoes made to CJ Handgrade standards?

David, thanks for the account. Very interesting.

I can't believe Flusser is charging $195 for a tie. I would guess it's not even a seven-fold at that price, although I would hope it is handmade.

Jay Kos has an excellent selection of interesting items but as another poster suggested, the quality makes the brand. I am not sure why his shirts, for instance, are $450 off the rack. If he could explain why in terms of the quality of cloth, the amount of handwork, the construction and the attention to detail, I would listen. One ebay reseller states that the Jay Kos shirts are made by Haines & Bonner, which is an also-ran to Thomas Pink making shirts in Turkey -- so, if true, that would not justify the price.

Did you make it to Century 21, David? Along with Barneys that's likely the only place in NY carrying Battistoni (ties, at least). However, from what Manton writes of them, I wouldn't imagine the Battistoni suit silhouette would become you.

RJ

bry2000 wrote:All I know is that when I stopped by Cleverlys last January, I asked one of guys there whether the RTW shoes were made by C&J, the guy told me that some were, some were not.

Now give the guys at Cleverley’s a break. Why should they be forthcoming with the information what manufacturer produces their RTW shoes?

It is one of the advantages of private label work that you can change suppliers as you please. You can change them for the right reasons (better product, more reliable supply) or for the wrong ones (lower costs = higher profit). Ultimately it is the retailer who puts his name into the product, who is held responsible for the product’s quality.

There was a time, before “designers” were known that everything you bought was private label work. A firm like Sulka only had their own label, but, probably, a multitude of suppliers which will have changed as time went on.

I also suspect that whoever manufacturers RTW shoes for Cleverley may be using lasts to their own specification, so even if you knew, you would not be able to get the same shoe (last) from anybody other than Cleverley.

As their RTW shoes are rather competitively priced anyway, the question is very much academic.

The only real drawback with Cleverley's RTW offering is that it necessitates a trip to Royal Arcade, and I find it near impossible to leave without having ordered one of their bespoke shoes instead. After all, that is what Cleverley's is really about, chiseled toes and bevelled soles...

Smoothjazz and I paid a visit to Cleverley's trunk show in New York, where I was able, for the first time, to inspect bespoke shoes and ready-mades side by side. Although the ready-made shoes were beautiful, and of unimpeachable quality (irrespective of who made them) they seemed rather, well, pedestrian in comparison with the bespoke shoes, which have a shape that is really quite extraordinary. While this is readily noticeable by comparing the photos of Green's ready-made and bespoke shoes elsewhere on this site, it really stands out with one of each in either hand. Most noticeable is the shape of the back of the bespoke shoe and the height and angle of the heel, which, quite simply, is not duplicated in the ready-mades. The ready-mades also do not have quite the same "Cleverley look" as the bespoke shoes. Intriguingly, Crockett & Jones 337 last rather more closely approximates this look than many of Cleverley's ready-mades.

£1450 a pair. Time to start rationalizing.