The London Lounge

Are there functional difference between these two tweeds, such as patterns and/or weights available, and anything else one might find interesting or important in choosing one fabric over the other.

There are a few differences. Harris Tweed is woven in Scotland. There is actually an association that safeguards the "brand" name by vouching for the methods of production (e.g., certain looming, dying and finishing techniques). It is made in a number of weights and patterns. If anything characterizes Harris Tweed as such, it is not smooth and soft and light but hard and scratchy and heavy. This is hard wearing, thick woolen that will last a long time.

Donegal is a type of tweed that originated in Ireland. So far as I know, there is no association or protector of the name. Thus Donegal these days refers more to a type of cloth than to any origin. It is a kind of large scale woolen birdseye, often with a dull ground buit with smallish flecks of brlght colors woven in. It is typically denser and tighter than Harris Tweed.

You can get a suit out of Donegal. I imagine Harris Tweed trousers would not be fun to wear. If anyone has tried it, it would be an LL member, so perhaps we shall hear from one soon.

I note that the laird would give his gamekeeper one suit of the estate tweed each year, and thought that the gamekeeper would have to be a hard man indeed - more than a match for any poacher - to wear such scratchy trousers. Then I remembered that one always wore long johns in those days. Thus, tweed trousers were probably the perfect thing for tramping around outdoors on those typical cold and damp spring, summer, autumn and winter days in Scotland.

Orvis offered Harris Tweed outdoor trousers, I think, in 1990 or 1991, for a single season. They had a heavy copper-colored silk lining, so scratchiness wasn't a problem. When I looked for them the following season I was told that customers had found them too stiff. The store recommended moleskin as a better outdoor trouser.

manton wrote: You can get a suit out of Donegal. I imagine Harris Tweed trousers would not be fun to wear. If anyone has tried it, it would be an LL member, so perhaps we shall hear from one soon.

Thanks for the info. It has helped me decide not to get a Harris tweed coat. I'm not fond of scratchiness in most of its forms (there was this girl once, however...).

There is a vintage (1950s) Harris Tweed suit on Ebay even as we speak:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-50s-Harris- ... dZViewItem

Harris tweed is actually pretty common in even halfway-decent menswear shops. If you have any lingering doubts, shouldn't be too hard to locate an item just for a look. When the average American thinks "tweed" it's usually a Harris tweed.

I concur with the comments regarding the "scratchiness" of traditional Harris tweed (though of course this is also an indicator of its durability).
I believe a potential additional problem with Harris tweed trousers is that they do not readily hold/keep a crease.

Having said all of that, I understand that some 5+ years ago the Harris tweed 'industry' did make some concerted (and successful) efforts to introduce a lighter/softer/more contemporary range of cloths....though a fair proportion of these were directed at the ladies market.

Houndstooth

Dear Houndstooth

The important thing is to select high quality tweeds. There is a great variance in Harris, Shetland, Donegal and Homespuns given the nature of the production:industrial, mass produced as opposed to low volume artisanale methods including hand weaving.

Take a piece of industrially made tweed in your hands, it feels like barbed wire. Hold it up to the light, you can nearly see through it the weave is so loose. Avoid these fabrics at all costs.

The best thing to do is to make sure you are dealing with merchants who trade in quality tweeds. WBill is an example of a tweed specialist company who can provide genuine products. Excellent tweeds are also available from some of the larger distributors and through the LL clothclub. Be very careful when choosing tweeds, especially for trousers.

I have two pairs of 19-ounce Donegal tweed trousers from Scotland; the things hold a crease like Whistler's Mother (obscure to be sure), and travel more convincingly than anything in my closet. The trousers in question are fully lined and comfortable in temperatures ranging from sixty degrees to well below freezing. I highly recommend heavy Donegal for autumn and winter wear.

exigent wrote:. . . 19-ounce Donegal tweed trousers from Scotland . . . .

Perhaps I was mistakenly geographically literalist: I'd thought that Donegal tweed was Irish tweed, that Scottish tweed was Harris or Shetland or various others. Were exigent's trousers simply made in Scotland, or is "Donegal" a term for a particular type of weave (herringbone, etc.)?

Might someone suggest a primer on tweed for the confused?

Like a lot of things, the name oringated from the product's place of origin. Then as it became popular, others began to make a simlar product using the same name. The Harris Tweed weavers formed an association to protect their "brand" so it's not really an issue with Harris Tweed. To the best of my knowedge, no such thing was ever done with respect to Donegal. So while the weave originated in Ireland, it is now made elsewhere.

Donegal does refer to a type of weave. It is much tighter and "harder" than Shetland, and typically denser and a bit thinner than Harris (which is really thick and heavy stuff). The classic Donegal pattern is a sort of birdseye. But there are other patterns. Just as most would (I think) say that the classic Harris Tweed pattern is a herringbone, but there are other patterns as well.

RWS wrote:

exigent wrote:. . . 19-ounce Donegal tweed trousers from Scotland . . . .

Perhaps I was mistakenly geographically literalist: I'd thought that Donegal tweed was Irish tweed, that Scottish tweed was Harris or Shetland or various others. Were exigent's trousers simply made in Scotland, or is "Donegal" a term for a particular type of weave (herringbone, etc.)?

Might someone suggest a primer on tweed for the confused?

Manton is quite correct. My "Donegal" weave was executed in Scotland, though, as you rightly point out, RWS, the county of record is located in Ireland. Donegal wears like iron; Harris, first-rate to be sure, is both slightly "looser" and less likely to follow you to the grave. Of course, legacy is always an option.... Shetland is softer than both of the above, and generally less hard wearing--it is lovely stuff, however.

As luck would have it, I am wearing today the coat from a Donegal Tweed suit I ordered in 1997. It is a classic design, and Manton‘s description is as good as any - it is something of a birdseye, although the base is made with three colors instead of the usual two in a typical worsted birdseye. In addition to the three main colors, threads of many other colors are thrown in somewhat randomly. In my case, the base is a reddish brown plus two shades of tan. The other colors are greens, purples, blues, red etc. To give you an idea of the overall affect, the random colors probably comprise less than 0.5% of the total threads used. You only see them close up and they have no effect on the overall appearance from any distance. They add great interest when seen up close.

As Exigent noted, it has a hard finish and wears like iron. Because it is tightly woven and has a hard finish, I think that in the right pattern and colorway, it could be used for a city business suit. Only your tailor and the most discerning eye would know.

I am almost certain to order another tweed suit next week and am considering a Donegal again, although I might try a non-traditional pattern.

I am open to other options, so please consider this a request for submissions. It will be a definite “country” cut, with an action back and possibly a half belt.

Might you consider a blue-gray-cream mix? Not very countryish (one thinks of browns, yellows, reds, greens, all warm colors instead of cool), but it would be wearable in town (though perhaps not with "action back" and half belt). I do think that such a coloring would complement your complexion well.

Thanks, RWS. I was considering a color shift from brown towards blues and grays for the reason you suggested.

As for town/business use, I wasn’t talking about my current project but only the possibility of using a traditional patterned Donegal that way. I agree that an action back and half-belt would be too much for classic town use. Although . . . I have an old Avery Lucas designed SB coat in a pale aqua-green heavy herringbone linen that has peak lapels, hacking pockets (and ticket pocket) a half back and no vents. Sounds odd but it looks great. If it needs a label, I suppose it would be resort wear.

manton wrote: I imagine Harris Tweed trousers would not be fun to wear. If anyone has tried it, it would be an LL member, so perhaps we shall hear from one soon.

I have a vintage two-piece harris tweed suit in a sort of rust brown with unlined trousers. Wearing the latter is certainly an experience... I find that american-cut boxer shorts and long socks are a useful adjuct. That said, it is excellent at keeping one warm on 6 hour train journeys up to the northeast (of England) which is when I generally wear it. Like all things, I suspect that it is something one grows inured to over time (e.g. when I first ventured into dressing formally, I found my father's wool and mohair dinner suit trousers so unbearably itchy that I wore them over pyjama trousers, yet now I wear unlined harris tweed).

I am not sure how good they are at maintaining a crease unaided as mine have some sort of glue-like substance keeping the crease. Whether this is as they were manufactured or whether it is a proprietary treatment by a dry cleaner (I suspect the latter) I am not sure, but I haven't cared to remove it in case something unfortunate happens.