The London Lounge

Gentlemen,

I am aware of the fact that lapel buttonholes ought to be straight, rather than keyhole-shaped. Nonetheless, I am amazed by the profusion of keyholes I see. I suppose, the only rationale that I can see would be on a high three-button sports coat, with a button on the back of the opposite lapel, such that it rolls up like a Nehru jacket in bad weather or otherwise. It is not a style of which I am terribly fond.

Am I right in thinking that the precise reason for a straight hole harks to the fact that it is not intended to be buttoned? It is elegant, not functional in that sense.

Secondly, is anyone familiar with the wearing of a double buttonhole on the lapel? I have even seen a triple! Three straight holes, about 5mm apart. Can anyone advise me as to the origins of this, whether it is acceptable, and whether it is likely to find favour?

Third, is there a consensus on whether it is appropriate to have a buttonhole in both lapels of a DB suit, or just one's left?

And, finally, what are members' feelings on a buttonhole in a shawl-collar dinner jacket? I am personally opposed, I feel it breaks up the smooth line too much. I notice in another thread that HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a supporter, though. And perhaps the Duke, also.

I will be most grateful for your assistance, gentlemen.

Regards,

Eden

BirdofSydney wrote:Am I right in thinking that the precise reason for a straight hole harks to the fact that it is not intended to be buttoned? It is elegant, not functional in that sense.

Yes, it is an evolution (or innovation, or both) away from its original purpose. But I would dispute the notion that it is not functional. It functions well as the home for a boutonnière.

Secondly, is anyone familiar with the wearing of a double buttonhole on the lapel? I have even seen a triple! Three straight holes, about 5mm apart. Can anyone advise me as to the origins of this, whether it is acceptable, and whether it is likely to find favour?

This is news to me. Sounds ghastly.

Third, is there a consensus on whether it is appropriate to have a buttonhole in both lapels of a DB suit, or just one's left?

Savile Row typically does two. I prefer it. I think DB coats look asymetrical and unbalanced with just one.

And, finally, what are members' feelings on a buttonhole in a shawl-collar dinner jacket? I am personally opposed, I feel it breaks up the smooth line too much. I notice in another thread that HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a supporter, though. And perhaps the Duke, also.

I like a buttonhole in the shawl collar DJ. Level with the floor, just like in the photo. Very smart.

I agree with Manton on all points save the last. As Eden, I feel that the smooth gracefulness of a shawl collar is broken and a pedestrian, daily-grind quality imparted to the dinner coat when a buttonhole is cut into the lapel (especially if the collar be faced with satin).

Windsor had Scholte cut a buttonhole on each lapel of his DJs as is evidenced by the photo above. Let us not forget that the "boutonniere" serves an elegant purpose. They do break the line, if not used. Wear a carnation! Somehow it would be missing if it were not on the shawl lapel DJ or any other lapel for that matter.

After a long walk in the country, don't your tweed coats sprout flowers? They should do so.

Cheers

How civilized!

I wonder how many of us dress for dinner when visiting friends' homes.

While I know very little about the Duke except what I have read here regarding his clothes, I must say I perceive a hedonist who very much enjoyed life and didn't give much of a damn.

The photo is sublime, seemingly portraying a very contented man altogether indulging himself in a splendid meal in a lovely setting, immaculately dressed, about to enjoy an hour with his cigar.

But equally interesting is the remarkable DJ, in green!

Is this actually a DJ, for evening wear? With red tie? With blue twill trousers?
What does the text mean by "corduroy"; is this corduroy as we understand it today?
Made by Scholte; was Scholte working with A&S at that time or independently? Was Scholte infact working in 1959? (label dated 12.10.59)
What is meant by cypher ('scarlet embroidered cypher")?
Trousers made by H. Harris. Do they exist today or have they morphed into another firm?
Coat worn with pocket square and botonierre.

Altogether a very interesting history to this item of clothing.

But more interesting , looking at the coat with 2005 eyes and sensibility, are the choice of colors in coat, tie and trousers; the engraved buttons, etc.

Is this coat and trousers a total innovation or was there some precedent for wearing such colors and style. ? I find it fascinating.

Which leads me think that bespoke can indeed be innovative rather than only repetitive of past classics and precedent.

Some of what we see the more forward clients of SR commissioning today may indeed find a place in men's bespoke repetoire down the road. But who today would dare to wear an ensemble such as this, only some 50 years on!

And, finally, what are members' feelings on a buttonhole in a shawl-collar dinner jacket? I am personally opposed, I feel it breaks up the smooth line too much. I notice in another thread that HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a supporter, though. And perhaps the Duke, also.

I am personally rather fond of a buttonhole, even in what you are describing as a relatively informal garment.

Mainly for the sakes of wearing a boutonniere which I feel is essential especially in the context of formalwear.

I believe that the multiple holes you speak of are for the purpose of threading a flower stem. I also have a couple of lapel vases that in theory keep the flower fresh -- although I have never noticed a flower to live longer when I use one of the things. As to the cut of the hole, I'm on the fence. I do think the intent of the keyhole is to make it look as if a button will go through, and I've had my tailor place a button in the back of the right lapel to facilitate this -- I live in Canada and a little extra closing of the jacket can come in very handy indeed!

This is my first post to this forum, so I'll use the opportunity to send all members my very sincere greetings, looking forward to a common journey in the Land of Personal Style (maybe with a fraction more emphasis on 'style' than on 'personal').

uppercase wrote: But equally interesting is the remarkable DJ, in green!
[...]
Is this actually a DJ, for evening wear? With red tie? With blue twill trousers?
[...]
But more interesting , looking at the coat with 2005 eyes and sensibility, are the choice of colors in coat, tie and trousers; the engraved buttons, etc.

Is this coat and trousers a total innovation or was there some precedent for wearing such colors and style. ? I find it fascinating.

On this topic, the contemporary literature can be of some help. I remember vaguely that there is a reference in Evelyn Waugh's 'Brideshead Revisited' (I don't have a copy at hand) where Lord Brideshead is said to 'wear the green velvet dinner jacket he always used at home' (or something in the same tenor). If I recall correctly, this is said to have been in the thirties, so if the Duke of Windsor's dinner jacket was tailored 1949 (the catalogue is a bit confusing: In the heading it says 1949, but the label quoted in the text stats 1959. A mipsrint?) he might not have been the first person to wear one.

Cheers

Lars

The double buttonholes might possibly serve a purpose for those who wish to wear both a boutonniere and a pocket watch in the breast pocket?