The London Lounge

Gentlemen,

I have just posted a new article on English Cut, "Straight or Crooked".

http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000072.html

Basically the fit of a straight coat has less material forward of the neck point on the front edge. This gives the jacket a slimmer feel, showing more shirt, especially on a double breasted. Also another characteristic is that the collar although fitted well, sits lower around the neck. This again shows more of the shirt and gives a slimmer feel to the wearer. This cut gives the feeling of a more youthful cut simply because as we age we invariably gain a little in the front. We then obviously require more material to compensate, or less when we are slim.

A crooked coat has basically the opposite characteristics. The coat should always fit neatly around the collar, however it will generally sit higher, showing less of the shirt collar stand. Also even if the coat is slim through the side seams it will still be easy in the front. There will be less shirt showing, again especially on double breasted.

I hope you find it informative.

Thank you.

...

Tom,

Thanks for an excellent post and lesson.

I do have to put in a word for crooked coats as they just seem to have more character. For those of you who have just realized you wear crooked clothes do not despair.

That is quite a journey you are planning. Some of our Chapter members in SF and Chicago should be able to recommend a good hotel. It might be time for an impromptu meeting as well.

Hope to read more of your material soon.

I should say that I was very glad to meet Mr. Mahon recently in Paris. He is a very elegant young man and very passionate about tailoring. We had quite a pleasant visit around town meeting local artisans of merit. It was a great pleasure.



Mr. Mahon at the Place Vendome.

Is Mr Mahon heading right into the Charvet shop? Are best local artisans work for Charvet?

Just joking

Andrey

Mr. Mahon:

Are you wearing one of your own creations in the above photo? Very nice. I've enjoyed reading your blog and website, and think it would be wonderful if you could indulge us with more photos of your finished work. Many thanks in advance.

Regards,
Tom

Yes, Tom, I cut that suit. Sadly, by the time Mr Alden took that photograph the trouser creases had begun to assert their authority.

It was a most enjoyable day- I found Mr Alden's company delightful and yes, he knows his stuff.

I very much look forward to my next visit to Paris and seeing him again.

I have decided to stay at the Drake in Chicago:

http://www.thedrakehotel.com

I am still considering my San Francisco hotel options- I'm teetering towards the Huntington at the moment, but it's not confirmed as of yet.

Ideally, I prefer a small, reasonably-priced, initmate hotel (like The Benjamin in New York orThe Mansart in Paris). One that feels more like a civilised private club, more than an airport terminal.

If you have any thoughts, I would very much appreciate them.

Thank you.

Gentlemen,

Perhaps there is more than one definition of the terms "crooken" and "straighten". Certainly, as described in Tom's piece, as well written as it is, personally I would have to say I would not use these terms to describe the amendments shown. My definition of crooken and straighten comes only from the shoulders and specifically the relation the front shoulder seam has to the back shoulder seam. And nowhere else.

I really hesitated to post these remarks as I never want to contradict another professional. However, I do so in order to, perhaps, start a dialogue within The Lounge to ascertain of there is, in fact, other definitions of the terms. Also, I would hate for a member to use the terms in an incorrect manner with his tailor.

I am completely open to being wrong on this subject, and wish to make this very clear.

Leonard

Leonard Logsdail wrote:Gentlemen,

Perhaps there is more than one definition of the terms "crooken" and "straighten". Certainly, as described in Tom's piece, as well written as it is, personally I would have to say I would not use these terms to describe the amendments shown. My definition of crooken and straighten comes only from the shoulders and specifically the relation the front shoulder seam has to the back shoulder seam. And nowhere else.

I really hesitated to post these remarks as I never want to contradict another professional. However, I do so in order to, perhaps, start a dialogue within The Lounge to ascertain of there is, in fact, other definitions of the terms. Also, I would hate for a member to use the terms in an incorrect manner with his tailor.

I am completely open to being wrong on this subject, and wish to make this very clear.

Leonard

Mr. Logsdail:

The presence of makers on this forum adds quite a bit. On the other hand, if you are loathe to disagree or contradict a fellow craftsman, I imagine the effect on the non-tradespeople is even more pronounced. I hope that turns out not to be the case as it would be unfortunate if conversation was stifled because people were afraid to criticize or contradict other members, whether they be artisans or not (and I understand you were not being critical). As long as we are polite, nothing should be off limits.

I will confess that I had no particular familiarity with the terms in question, and while your usage seems more natural, that does not mean it is how it is understood in the trade. In any event, I referenced Mr. Mahon’s usage in a slightly different post in the bespoke suits and coats section and would appreciate both of your comments there if you have time.

For some reason, and I've been meaning to speak to Michael Alden about this, the Bespoke Suit section does not appear whenevr I log on. All the other sections are there, but this one. Hopefully, someone will read this who can amend the situation.

Leonard

Leonard Logsdail wrote:For some reason, and I've been meaning to speak to Michael Alden about this, the Bespoke Suit section does not appear whenevr I log on. All the other sections are there, but this one. Hopefully, someone will read this who can amend the situation.

Leonard

I've PM'ed Mr. Alden earlier today regarding the same. The only forum section available when I am logged in is the Dressing Room. Besides the Bespoke Suits section, I see other forum members make mention in past posts of a "Gallery" section of which I am also unable to see or access. I am also hopeful someone will read this and remedy the situation.

Regards,
Tom

Leonard Logsdail wrote:For some reason, and I've been meaning to speak to Michael Alden about this, the Bespoke Suit section does not appear whenevr I log on. All the other sections are there, but this one. Hopefully, someone will read this who can amend the situation.

Leonard

Send him a PM or an email and he'll get right on it. I don't see why you shouldn't have access to the Bespoke forum, especially since you're a CA.

I've noticed that a lot of politicians have straight suits.
I think that because it's more open, it says I'm more honest and I've got nothing to hide.
" Ah did not have sexual relations with that woman."

I also hesitated to post on this subject but feel Mr. Logsdail has opened the door in the correct manner. I hope to explain in simple terms how and why a shoulder can be straight or crooked. First, apply a tape measure starting at the jacket hem, running on top of the front dart, up to the shoulder point where the front, back and undercollar meet. ( I will label this the front neck point) Keeping the tape at jacket hem, move the tape forward 1/2" ( toward the front edge/ lapel) The neck point becomes lower. the measure remains the same and the line of the shoulder is more "straight "( horizontal) Move the tape back 1/2" ( towards the armhole) and the neck point rises above the shoulder line. The shoulder line is more sloped or " crooked". There are many reasons to "straighten" or "crook" the shoulder line. Doing so affects the body ( chest and skirt) of the jacket as well as the shoulder line and the fit of the collar against the neck. Can't say this is a universal definition , merely my own interpretaion of these terms as I have applied them in my own work.

For those of you interested in the straight vs crooked debate....

I have had some questions regarding “straight vs crooked” jackets recently as a result of some posts where this term was used.

To Tom Mahon’s drawing (www.englishcut.com) I have added a black line. This line descends from a point in advance of Tom’s line. Note how

1. The collar is lowered;
2. The line from the scye is flatter, more horizontal;
3. The black line is “straighter” ie more perpendicular than the original line; and
4. As a consequence the amount of cloth on the front edge of the straighter line is reduced.

This is what is meant by moving more cloth towards the scye in a straight cut as opposed to a crooked one. The straight cut will render more drape given the same amount of cloth as the amount of cloth has not been changed, only the distribution or positioning of that cloth.



Here is another illustration taken directly from Tom Mahon’s cutting board at Warwick Hall in beautiful Cumbria. The white line is the crooked cut.



I hope this makes the issue of straight vs crooked clear and you all can have good fun asking your tailors about it.