The London Lounge

alden wrote:

Anyway we have since gotten onto a discussion about how to interact with craftsmen. And for over a decade now, I have written that this is a subject of prime importance. Its vastly more important than any possible nit or nat a nitpicker can pick.
Cheers

In rereading the above quote from Michael, I ruminated on an interaction I recently had with a tailor. I would like to present the situation and see how fellow Loungers would have responded.

I arrived at the tailor for a fitting, when I saw my suit hanging in the work area, it looked splendid. I proceed to try on the trousers; they fit great. Then I looked into the mirror; and what did I see? Two back pockets; the problem, there should not have been any. Additional, since I do not like rear pockets, I have a special pocket sewn into the waist band, to hold my credit cards and identification; it was not there. Now if you were confronted with the situation, how would you have dealt with the craftsman?

Bespoke62

I only ever worked with craftsman that merited great respect, and whose primary merit was an unwavering commitment to do their very best. I could never ask for more. And sometimes, because tailors are fallible and human, mistakes were made. So I always endeavored to merit their respect by returning that respect in equal measure.

So I would say, “Brilliant trousers. Thanks. You know, for my next pair I would like them with no back pockets and with a small inside pocket. Don’t you think?”

My tailor would have blushed at those words and I would have hastened to change the subject, and move on. He might have been thinking, “Goodness Gracious”, but I’d never let him say it.

Cheers

Surely there is a limit?

Is having two pockets cut when you asked for none the same as asking for a single button coat and being presented with a two button?

It's not life or death, but if I asked for a trouser with no rear pockets, I would expect a trouser with no rear pockets.

Craft, and getting the order right are not, in my view, the same thing.

aston wrote:Surely there is a limit?

Dear Aston,

sure, there is a limit, it's called "fit"

What is the issue with the two back pockets? The tailor had more work, and you don't need to use them. Impact on fit: 0

The tailor is a human being, and mistakes do happen. In contrast to a doctor's mistakes, the tailors' walk around, and this is may be a remark to make in such a situation.

There are some really funny ones in my wardrobe, like a DB ending up as an SB coat, a waist coat being made on top without ordering it, side adjusters being fixed the wrong way, a cashmere dressing gown giving birth to an unexpected sports coat, and so on Each time I have them in my hands, they remind me of human imperfection and make me smile. Perfection is boring, trust me

Cheers, David

.

This will be my honest reaction.

If I can live with it, I laugh it off. If I cannot, I simply tell him I will like to have no pockets.

In my own experience, one time I asked for a ticket pocket, my cutter told me they generally don't do that (for whatever reason), I simply said 'ok, I trust you more than I trust myself'. At the end, I can live with a jacket with no ticket pocket.

In my very limited custom-made-suit experience, I've not run into any glaring omissions / mistakes but my impression is that the fellows I've worked with would fix any oversights as a matter of fact.

That said, forbearance is an admirable quality, not a weakness. If someone that invests the equivalent of 1/3 of an average person's annual earnings in a suit is willing to overlook a mistake then, in Italian, we would call that "signorile" (gentlemanly).

old henry wrote:.

While silence may be golden, it is not very instructive. Perhaps not.....

You are developing a relationship, and it takes time, patience and understanding.

In my experience, you have to trade ideas, back and fourth a few times. Explain your reasoning for certain details and why they are important to you. As mentioned above by David, if the fit is right and the balance is there, nothing else really matters. Those details often get forgotten with time.

D.

ddemarte wrote:You are developing a relationship, and it takes time, patience and understanding.

In my experience, you have to trade ideas, back and fourth a few times. Explain your reasoning for certain details and why they are important to you. As mentioned above by David, if the fit is right and the balance is there, nothing else really matters. Those details often get forgotten with time.

D.

Yes! It takes time.
My first trouser was not the way I wanted it. I said nothing and was happy with the fact that the next trouser would be exact to my specs.
But...the next pair didn't have side-adjusters. Not to worry I never use them anyway (this pair was part of a suit so I wear it with braces).
The next pair was brilliant. So he knows my preferences and understands the thoughts behind them.

So the next commission 2 trousers I commissioned will be gold. I trust my tailor and what Michael Alden said it will take some commissions to get the style right. (as long as the fit is right from the start of course)

Sounds like Italy

I think the most important requirement for a good customer/tailor relationship is reciprocal sympathy. So as a customer you should be generous regarding smaller imperfections and mistakes and the tailor should always give his very best to create the best garment he can.

I ordered more than a dozen suits or jackets now and none of them was perfect, for example in the last jacket he forgot to sew in the small label with my name and the date into the inner pocket.

Before I turned to bespoke, I wore Caruso MTM. The results were extremely consistent -no flaws, although they have a decent amount of handwork. Perfect, but it lacked this certain charm.

O yea, one of my jackets doesn't have the name tag.
Cloth labels are never sewn in, and that is a good thing. I know where the cloth is coming from.

I found the saying from O'mast (documentary) spot on:
Renato Ciardi: A defect is an effect (if the suit is made well, it differentiates from a mass-produced one)

It happens all the time, but then a few years later I found those same mishaps the most charming features and just smile

L.deJong wrote:O yea, one of my jackets doesn't have the name tag.
Cloth labels are never sewn in, and that is a good thing. I know where the cloth is coming from.

I found the saying from O'mast (documentary) spot on:
Renato Ciardi: A defect is an effect (if the suit is made well, it differentiates from a mass-produced one)

... or even wrong cloth labels

Great movie!

Gentlemen

Agree fully that it is all about the fit. That is why we decide to pursue excellence through bespoke.

But if you ask for an A that fits but the tailor makes you a B that fits, then something is wrong.

And if you say thanks for the B that fits, but I asked for an A that fits, then who is right: the client who accepts something other than what he asked for, or the tailor who made something the client didn’t ask for?

Sorry, it if it matters ENOUGH to the client, and there is no doubt about the detail noted at the time of the commission, then the tailor should be gracious enough to accept they had made an error, even if their error fits beautifully, and offer a solution.